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US Election Thread

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♔ Read a Book ♔ Peasant 05/01/2020 (Fri) 01:16:48 No. 22

Reading Thread.
>>6012 this is it take a shit got no time dirty mind uwe uwe uwe
>>5950 ¿Dónde? Decir que pudieran existir tampoco ayuda. He buscado por los sitios usuales y no he encontrado nada.
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The last ditch effort. This last reading list, now I retire.
>>6311 Nice and concise, but with plenty of supplementals. I like it.
>>6311 Truly great lectures to read to the childreen before they sleep.
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>>6461 Here is the updated one.
& pamphlets
So far I've read Leviathan by Hobbes(I thought he was right about the importance of political stability, how a house divided against itself cannot stand, etc.; but that he was wrong in starting his foundation with the enlightenment idea that the people elected a monarch). I've read Patriarcha by Filmer and thought it was good(but I should probably re-read it). I was thinking I should read The Menace of the Herd or Aristotles Politics next. Does /monarchia/ have a recommendation?
>>6984 >Aristocrat You must be an oldfag.
If you're looking at Hobbes and Filmer, you should really look to Jean Bodin's Six Books of a Commonwealth + Easy Method for the Comprehension of History. Jean Bodin Six Books of Commonwealth: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A16275.0001.001?c=eebo;c=eebo2;g=eebogroup;rgn=main;view=fulltext;xc=1
>Aristotles Politics There's a lot of problems Monarchists have with Aristotle -- the more I've come to understandd.
Political Works & Speeches of King James VI & I: https://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC01294377&id=nl8NAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA53#v=onepage&q&f=false You can read K. James VI & I -- True Law of Free Monarchies + his speeches (which I recommend skipping to after True Law of Free Monarchies).
You can read all of Filmer here.
Bossuet Politics Drawn from Holy Scripture covers Monarchy pretty well.
If you're looking for a more libertarian perspective on Monarchy rather than absolutist, however, then you know -- Hoppe's Democracy the God that Failed Hans-Adam II The State in the Third Millennium Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn's Liberty Or Equality Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn's The Menace of the Herd Bertrand de Jouvenel Sovereignty & On Power ---- ...I have my problems with right libertarians & monarchy... which imo dates back to Aristotle's & Alexis de Tocqueville's legacy... but nevertheless I'll throw these works out there (even though they're fundamentally opposed the absolutism espoused here). Lately in that sphere I also noticed Von Haller (ahem, Carlsbad) is fairly popular and trendy.
CYROPAEDIA Xenophon https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2085/2085-h/2085-h.htm Good classic read here^
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I compiled stuff here. Make of it what you will.
>>6985 Nope, I'm a newfag. I found out about the names from picrel
>>6986 I don't know much about Jean Bodin but I'll add him to my reading list. >>6988 I've read(and enjoyed) Dante's Divine Comedy so I'll probably take your advice and read De Monarchia next. Thanks for the recommendation. >>6987 I was mainly asking about Aristotle because I know that Filmer has a dialogue about him.
>>6999 Every monarchist should know the Herodotus Debate + Homer's monarchist maxim from the Illiad.
>>6999 A lot of grievances that constitutional monarchists and libertarians have with Absolute Monarchy goes back to Aristotle -- personally, I believe those grievances are incompatible with a monarchical state. Also the notion of mixed constitutionalism strongly goes back to Aristotle (at least, as we absolutists see it). The whole business with muh centralization complaint thrown at absolute monarchists is in essence really Aristotle's complaint that the political constitution or concord of freemen and equals shouldn't be governed like a household or monarchy -- it shouldn't be brought under unity to such an extent or one person to lead them -- centralization complaint is basically Aristotle's City on a bigger scale, except instead of the pretense of the estates against the city & ruling it like a monarchy, it is regions against the state sovereignty. --So understand there it's anti-monarchy from the beginning with the centralization problem, inherently at odds with the one command of monarchy and its unity and governing the state like a monarchy. ... For example, Aristotle fundamentally denies monarchy is appropriate for ruling the State, but should stay to the private estate or economic unit only. Knowledge for the monarchy to govern the State is also denied, because of Aristotle's food argument and also his stating that political and economical are different -- so we cannot say, that a monarch knows better to govern the entire State, because he knows how to govern his own estate and rule himself. ... And because Aristotle says Monarchy should not rule the political constitution or State -- then Monarchy altogether is pretty much denied as a form of State or Republic or Commonwealth -- which pretty much denies Monarchy as we fancy it... but sure others try to do a positive spin (ahem, Von Hallerists / Carlsbad) and suggest with patrimonialism that Monarchy should only be for the economic estate in a more positive manner... but like with all constitutionalism such as this from Aristotle, it makes Monarchy inferior in relationship to the political -- which denies monarchical pre-eminence and any majesty for Monarchy. ... Lastly, there's Aristotle's food argument: that albeit one wise man (like a philosopher king) might outsmart particular members of an assembly, that wise man cannot compete with the wisdom imparted from all the council, saying that they'll bring more food to the table (ideas) with their persons. The "food to the table" case makes the case for democracy, in that we'll want all the estates or houses of a city to bring ideas to better govern and know what is happening -- of course, even absolute monarchists somewhat concede this and make an appeal for the estates-general or parliamentary institutions or any assembly, but remember we also cannot suffice with this for Monarchy's sake, because it denies the Monarch knowledge to govern -- so we'd rather stick with Plato's maxim, political and economical are no different, and that everything you need to know to govern politically can also be found in the economical estate and most famously to know yourself. ... + Aristotle's water argument: one droplet of water is corrupted more easily than an ocean of water.
To understand absolute monarchists attitude toward Aristotle, I'll leave you with quotes from Jean Bodin & Thomas Hobbes: Jean Bodin - Aristotle, forced to confess that there never were any king & Moses the greatest tyrant of all >"What Aristotle said that the king becomes a tyrant when he governs even to a minor degree contrary to the wishes of the people – is not true, for by this system there would be no kings. Moses himself, a most just and wise leader, would be judged the greatest tyrant of all, because he ordered and forbade almost all things contrary to the will of the people. Anyway, it is popular power, not royal, when the state is governed by the king according to the will of the people, since in this case the government depends upon the people. Therefore, when Aristotle upheld this definition, he was forced to confess that there never were any king" ... Bodin - Natives of America, not trained by Aristotle, but shaped by Nature >"Moreover, from earliest memory the people of America always have retained the royal power. They do not do this because they have been taught, but from custom. They were not trained by Aristotle, but shaped by their leader, nature. Furthermore, when they hear that the rule of optimates exists in some corners of Italy or Germany, they marvel that this can be." Hobbes -- Scarce any thing more absurdly said & more repugnant to Governman than Aristotle's Politics >"And I believe that scarce any thing can be more absurdly said… more repugnant to Government, than much of that he hath said in his Politics" I believe Robert Filmer also criticizes Aristotle in his treatise on Aristotle -- particularly, I recall, on the whole tyranny meme: Filmer said, for example, that no master can ever wholly govern his servants for himself ('cause from Aristotle, we know "govern not for yourself" or the principle of partiality (denying the whole for particular interest) -- a master in order to preserve himself also has to preserve his servants, Filmer says. ... Filmer / Political & Economic, No Different >Aristotle gives the lie to Plato, and those that say that political and economical societies are all one, and do not differ specie, but only multitudine et paucitate, as if there were 'no difference betwixt a great house and a little city'. All the argument I find he brings against them is this: 'The community of man and wife differs from the community of master and servant, because they have several ends. The intention of nature, by conjunction of male and female, is generation. But the scope of master and servant is only preservation, so that a wife and a servant are by nature distinguished. Because nature does not work like the cutlers at Delphos, for she makes but one thing for one use.' If we allow this argument to be sound, nothing doth follow but only this, that conjugal and despotical [lordly / master] communities do differ. But it is no consequence that therefore economical and political societies do the like. For, though it prove a family to consist of two distinct communities, yet it follows not that a family and a commonwealth are distinct, because, as well in the commonweal as in the family, both these communities are found. So there's a reason why we sorta bonk on Aristotle (but tbh there's also a few problems we have with Plato, but I'd say we're overall less critical.)
Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf also criticizes parliamentarianism: >Does anybody honestly believe that human progress originates in the composite brain of the majority and not in the brain of the individual personality? ^this can also be read as a knack against Aristotle (food argument) & re-asserting the philosopher king / rule of a wise man.
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Which isn't to say that there's nothing a monarchist can find in Aristotle: These 4 screencaps related are useful information from Aristotle. I think Aristotle does an adequate job describing what monarchical pre-eminence is (although he denies it later). Aristotle also briefly notes how monarchical rule is a personal form of rule & doesn't take his turn in being governed (in talking about the difference between a king and statesmen). Which I added to my 8 fundamentals of sovereign monarchy. Aristotle talked briefly about blood relationship in monarchy -- being of the same blood and suckled by the same milk -- which is pretty much why royal animals like ants and bees are royal, since they're all offspring of the same queen in a monogamous colony and share the same blood. Aristotle also briefly talks about the fatherly nature of Monarchy. (Which you can also hear about in Xenophon's Cyropaedia -- I covered that in my thread). But we have a love-hate relationship with Aristotle.
Absolute monarchists hold Plato's maxim that there's no difference between the economic (household) and political (city). --But we are a little partial to Aristotle's idea of Monarchy modeled after a household nonetheless, we just say that all the sufficient things to govern the State or body-politic are also to be found therein and don't function differently. --As Jean Bodin says, you don't build a City without Houses. To separate these would be like pulling the limbs from the body. The power of the Pater Familias is retained. When the sons and servants leave the estate of their father & master, that power of them is retained and rolls into Sovereignty. The nature of the master's household with his sons and servants is the same as a city, because when the master has a room for various servants like a room for cooking (kitchen), a room for learning (library), a room for clothes and storage -- those are also found in the city as buildings like rooms in a master's estate, when the master's home runs out of rooms for these services, the sons and servants moved out and made more rooms as buildings of a City. In a City, you find restaurants like a kitchen in an home, libraries like a library in a home, stores like store rooms in a home, etc. Except both the household / estate & the political / state have their common and proper relationships and propriety: they have this in proper and this in common, as we might say we have a king in common, and the king has us in proper. ... 1st screencap is Bodin. 2nd is Aristotle. 3rd is Plato. 4th is Aristotle again.
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Robert Filmer's work is important because it's very important to the idea of Monarchy regarding the Pater Familias that this power is retained -- so when a city is formed like a colony from the Pater Familias, it easily is reconciled with a monarchical in the State. If we deny the power of the Pater Familias even as his sons and servants leave (and get older), then we deny a foundation for monarchy to govern the State -- since now he is stuck with his own estate (like Aristotle wants & why constitutional monarchists don't want monarchy to govern the State & have little as possible). --I think Carlsbad (Von Hallerfag) also tried to deny the retention of the Pater Familias' power... which you can see as troublesome for justifying monarchy, since with the retention of the pater familias' power comes an easy justification to say there's monarchical rule both in the household and eventually grows into the State as the final public authority like sovereignty. ... Vico in New Science also makes an important quote: >Axioms 67-76, and particularly the corollary to 69, show us that fathers in the family state must have exercised monarchical power which was subject to God alone. This power extended over the persons and property of their children, and to a greater extent over those of the family servants, famuli, who had sought refuge on their lands. This made them the first monarchs of the world. (We must interpret the Bible as referring to such men when it calls them patriarchs, which means "ruling fathers".) Throughout the Roman republic, their monarchical rights were guaranteed by the Law of the Twelve Tables, which says, "The family father shall have the right of life and death over his children". And it adds that "Whatever a son acquires, he acquires for his father". ... <"Whatever a son acquires, he acquires for his father" I like to imagine this like for an ant colony -- the ant queen sends her offspring out to nourish the colony, they come back and provide nourishment for the colony as a whole and inevitably back to the queen ant. The queen ant is the sovereign power, motion, and lifeforce of the entire ant colony: kill the queen, what happens next is decay, and the gradual decline of their sovereign soul.
>>7002 >>7003 Thank you for all the quotes/commentary; but, doesn't Aquinas think similarly to Aristotle in De Regno(which you linked above)?(I read that he did, I forget where though; haven't actually read Aquinas yet.) I have a copy of Plato's Republic, so I'll probably read that after De Monarchia.
Also, are there any active monarchist blogs? I've heard of Mad Monarchist but it looks like he/she stopped. I've read a bit of Moldbug but I'm not really sure if he's a monarchist or just reactionary.
>>7009 >doesn't Aquinas think similarly to Aristotle I wouldn't say entirely, but yes, people say Aquinas regurgitates a lot of Aristotle. Nonetheless Monarchists have certain grievances with Aristotle & I listed a few above. For example, Aristotle wards that the State shouldn't have too much unitary contrary to Plato -- the talking point of atomization basically comes from Aristotle, because he said that in response to Plato. It depends what you want with monarchy -- if you're looking for absolute monarchy then, yes, you should be wary of Aristole -- constitutional monarchy? well, sure, but keep in mind that almost becomes tantamount to being like a president (elected & limited, takes turns, & merely a part of the constitution & not in relation of the entire State, etc). You could even make the case presidents are limited monarchs along with dictators and ideal constitutional monarchs. Some constitutionalists for real try to make that case -- like Clement Atlee & David Starkey & others. >>7010 >I've heard of Mad Monarchist but it looks like he/she stopped You can still find MM. Bones of LaSalle Or @bonesoflasalle on Twitter >are there any active monarchist blogs? I have mixed feelings about most bloggers -- don't like 'em. There's Carlsbad and Imperium Press, I suppose, and there were NeoAbsolutist bloggers sometime ago -- but that's old news. You should find all the sufficient information here as well. I'd rather you read the books than most bloggers. That's my opinion, b/c I don't think most bloggers are decent. >Moldbug There is neocameralism which is like the doctrine we've been talking about (political & economical no different). https://pcbwiki.net/wiki/Neocameralism
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Read this series on Majesty / Sovereignty / Pre-eminence I compiled. It should run you a nice reference sheet.
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This should be helpful.


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