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Comic Industry Collapse Watch Thread #2 Anonymous 01/22/2022 (Sat) 22:37:34 No. 22458
>>179 Last one hit bump limit. >Corona-chan is still fucking over the world economy >Nearly all small publishers are getting eaten alive >Sales are collapsing >Online indie comics are gaining steam >Shops going bust >Someone is blackmailing the mouse so Marvel comics can survive >Discovery may kill DC comics What a wonderful time to be alive.
>>22458 IDW Loses Transformers And G.I. Joe Licenses >After seventeen years and a spiral into injecting the popular franchises with woke identity politics, comic book publisher IDW has announced that they will officially lose the publishing licenses to Hasbro’s iconic Transformer and G.I. Joe franchises at the end of 2022. >IDW’s loss of Transformers and G.I. Joe makes the second such massive license loss for the publisher in recent months. >In September 2021, Disney and Lucasfilm withdrew the publisher’s licenses for their Marvel and Star Wars all-ages lines. https://archive.is/Jw7cf
>>22459 Good. If only TMNT could be saved from the trannies at IDW too.
I’ve had the belief that without the movies, shows, and games, comics would be dead already. Sales numbers haven’t been very good except for Batman stuff and the occasional event comic for a while now.
>>22458 How many people still read comics these days? Aside fanboys that enjoy DC and Marvel Comics.
>>22459 >>22461 If IDW will keep circling the drain, Dark Horse will likely take over as Turtles' publisher. It already happened with Star Wars license when IDW lost it and Dark Horse ended up getting it back this year. >>22466 Readership of mainstream comics appears to be more or less stagnating. TPBs grow, as floppies decline. Revenue ebbs slightly up or dawn from year to year, but it's a wash overall last time I checked. Comics market is growing overall, but it's mainly due to sales of everything that is not Marvel and DC. Manga and Kids' comics keep growing. Based on bookscan and other estimations they make up about 60% to 75% of the market. European translations are growing too. They are mainly published digitally, but are becoming lucrative enough for Ablaze, Archaia, Magnetic Press, and Titan to live off of and grow themselves by publishing physical versions of European translations. There are some outsider initiatives around that might go somewhere. Iconic Comics seems to be the most promising at the moment. There are people making money off of selling their comics primarily on comixology or gumroad. Substack began expanding to comics in the last year, and webtoons grew big enough for mainstream publishers to take notice.
>>22467 All the things you describe are effectively different industries than what people mean when they refer to "the comic book industry." It's the same logic that made it stupid when courts ruled Diamond wasn't a monopoly because comics are just magazines and Diamond wasn't a monopoly over all magazines. Yeah technically comics are magazines but really it's a different industry. Manga and Euro comics are really a different industry too. And TPBs of old material are also quite different, because they don't justify the creation of new material. TPBs of newer material might still be close enough to count, but even they would mean that the entire industry should change to focus on them (which they should anyway). But I also bet TPBs of modern material don't sell very well at all.
>>22488 There's only two comics I'd even consider buying TPBs of from the last decade, Gwenpoole and Flynn's Mega Man, and 1: I see no reason to when none of the money goes to the writers and instead feed a company that hates me. 2: They only offer collected 3/4 issue extended comics, not big omnibus books.
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Things are changing, and for the better. Not just comics, mind you
>>22493 I wouldn't say that. Capeshit movies suck more than ever, indie book adaptations all make dramatic woke changes, & there's far too few cartoon projects that are either very limited run shows or take a long long time to come out with new seasons. Looking at Kid Cosmic & Primal right now.
>>22493 Eggsplain.
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>>22493 Anon, Captain America is now a teenage runaway gay hobo, a majority of those "highly anticipated movies" have nuked the box office, and all those "shows" my coworkers like to watch on The CW in the break room at work suck. The biggest named publishers in the comic industry are about to fold. Why? Personal politics, redundant promotion of petty causes, allowing their products to become awash with menial crap, making characters gay for profit, siding with writers which blamed X demographic for poor sales of their SJW comics, and the list goes on.
>>22517 >my coworkers Anon, Jimmy from cubicle 2 wants you to stop spying on him. Its stalkerish and weird.
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>>22517 Anon, The guy you are talking to is not implying any of that's not true. He's usang a cyberfrog image so he's probably a ComicsGate guy. He's likely talking about how CG creators and adjacents are on the rise. I don't know how true that is since I don't follow CG that closely because of drama, but I'm certain that was his posts implication.
>>22517 Those movies and the entire comic industry bombing are good things. They became bad, so now they fail. Also, the CW ratings are shit, even for CW, so your coworkers are not a representative sample of the population.
>>22529 >so your coworkers are not a representative sample of the population. When I worked in an office, all anyone ever watched in the break room was reruns of Star Trek: Next Gen and Friends.
I still don't buy Marvel/DC dying before we're all too old to appreciate it, if only because of those "make propaganda and i'll pay you millions" ESG funds from Blackrock and its ilk.
>>22539 Yeah but it doesn't seem unlikely that Disney or WB will stop caring about producing it in house, and will instead just lease the rights to some other publisher. Disney's already experimented with it.
>>22519 >>22520 >>22529 Well... for one... I don't work in an office. For two, things still be stated even if the given does not correlate with the presented facts and/or context. For three, you got to have something to keep you going while working 8hrs daily, overnights, stocking heavy shit in a large store.
>>22547 >you got to have something to keep you going while working 8hrs daily, overnights, Anon, Jimmy is threatening to sue the company for negligence if they don't approve his restraints order on you.
>>22529 > the CW ratings are shit, Well the CW was never profitable, why they were kept around for so long is anyone's guess.
>>22561 I assume smallville. It must have been profitable at some point.
>>22564 Merchandise maybe but not television viewership. Warner said it themselves it was never profitable.
>>22556 >Anon, Jimmy is threatening to sue the company for negligence if they don't approve his restraints order on you. Not my fault mid 30s Jimmy got written up for watching shitty movies and texting on his phone during work hours. Of course the supervisor was going to approach Jimmy while he was reclined in a folding chair with his earbuds in his ears. >>22561 Viacum clearly has enough money to burn. But the idea at first was to make a better WB by combining it with UPN, which didn't work. Because they forgot to aid sci-fi programing. And now they've somehow ended up with an even bigger failure of a network. But they don't seem to care.
>>22517 >InJUSTice This shit is still going?
>talentless creators over at Image set up a union because they can't accept their books arent selling >Nearly 40 content creators have signed on to a proposed class action in which they allege beleaguered comic book publisher Action Lab Entertainment has fallen far short of satisfying a laundry list of contractual obligations. https://archive.is/5SJnj https://archive.is/k5rFJ This may actually be the year.
>>22807 >>talentless creators over at Image set up a union because they can't accept their books arent selling The people looking to form a union aren't even comic creators though; they're the actual employees of Image Comics
>>22807 >talentless creators over at Image set up a union because they can't accept their books arent selling what >>22888 said. The entire union is composed of office workers. No actual artist or writer is a part of them. It's solely comprised of apex progs who want the abilty to cancel comics at their digression instead of the owners, among other thing.
>>22807 I wonder how long they’ll last before pulling a Dark Horse?
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>Marvel classics getting re-released under a different publisher
>>24440 A publisher that also handles distribution for their comic books, and has done so for a while.
>>24440 They're acting like something featuring Black Panther is a classic?
>>24557 He's the first black superhero, anon! Just because nobody gave a shit about him until he got a shitty movie doesn't mean he isn't a super important impactful character!
>>24561 >Just because nobody gave a shit about him until he got a shitty movie doesn't mean he isn't a super important impactful character! This is kind of a moot point because alot of people didn't give a shit about characters until after they get movie appearances.
>>24566 Maybe but no one acts like Blade or Moon Knight are important cultural landmarks.
>>24567 I mean, I get alot of us hate niggers. But can you really say the first nigger character in mainstream comic with a notable fanbase that exist amongst comicfags really not significant enough for to be a cultural landmark? He's not the most popular avenger, but he was more popular the moon knight and blade even before he got a movie to my knowledge(except for when Blade beat him to the punch in getting an adaption.)
>>24569 No not really. Storm was more popular than Black Panther & she's just a team character. He was arguably on the same level as Blade & Moon Knight comic wise. Not notable to most readers. Kind of a cult following. Didn't blow up till the movie shit.
Let's be real. Sales are declining because fans have been shat on 10 times too many and finally had it when (insert virus here) hit, which devastated the comic industry because nearly all the comic shops ran out of business and shut down. Everyone left was hit with nothing but woke flop after even more woke flop. Those with sense jumped ship to the manga industry and never looked back since Manga were both easier to follow and had insanely good stories without all the w0ke agenda politics. The proof is in the numbers, and one volume of demon slayer just last year outsold the entire top 10 list of comics.
>>24571 No comics were dead way before the chinkflu. It started at least in 2011 around Secret Invasion. Then it was a downward decline to New 52 & Marvel NOW! plummeting into a bottomless ravine.
>>24570 >Storm was more popular than Black Panther & she's just a team character Sure but you can't exactly collect here series as a classic because all the classical shit put's her fairly in a ensemble cast. Meanwhile Black Panther has stories that more stand alone. I don't think she was getting solo shit until the mid 2000's and even then she got paired with Black Panther.
>>24571 > w0ke Why are their so many people who talk like twitter fags on this board? You can just say woke or pozz you know. You're not going to get banned for it, in fact Frank's more likely to ban you if you don't because he hates people who type like twitter users or cuckchanners.
>>24571 That's nothing. Comics took the first bad hit when moral panic around them and CCA picked up steam. This bad course was maybe reversible, but what followed is what really did the comics in: >Genres dying out or diminishing due to CCA >DC exploiting the situation and doing all they can to become the face of comics, thus creating the association of comics = capeshit for children >DC and Marvel trying to their best to become monopolies within the industry >Capeshit fanboys getting into key roles within the industry and killing last remaining western, military, and horror books so they can publish more capes or through simple negligence >Switch towards comic book stores and abandoning other points of sale >Horrid mismanagement throughout 80s and 90s >Chasing speculators and collectors, trying to squeeze as much money with little regard for consequences >Marvel's foray into comics distribution, which in the end led to the situation where Diamond was the last one left standing >Ignoring people who were talking about manga and internet being the next big things >Decades of shit pay, shit working terms, shit management, cultivating fanbase of morons who will buy anything that has Batman or Wolverine, driving anyone sane and competent to other industries All of that is how we got to the point we are in today. Unless you are a foreigner getting paid in dollars or a professional cover artist, there is no point to working for most American comic publishers. Manga in the US is selling better then all American comic books outside of Scholastic combined. People who would read Heavy Metal or self published work like Cerebus back in the day now read manga or European comics. American publishers only now are experimenting with formats and platforms, after their new corporate overlords forced them, but the optimal moment to do it was about 20 to 15 years ago. Hickups due to covid are nothing compared to mass store closures and market shrinkage in mid to late 90s. I put the most fault on the poor management, especially for letting fanboys get too much control. Imagine what would happen if a cancerous fan base like Who-lock and Supernatural fangirls got a hold of creative decisions. That's what happened to American comics.
>>24574 Yeah but that's not what's up for debate here. The matter is simply that Black Panther is only collected here because it's riding off the popularity of the movie from niggers who think half assed afrotopia is a real place or even feasible.
>>24580 > The matter is simply that Black Panther is only collected here because it's riding off the popularity of the movie from niggers who think half assed afrotopia is a real place or even feasible. Well yeah, but he's also the only black character they can reasonably collect and label a "classic." I'm pretty sure he regularly got this treatment even before the movie.
>>24583 Luke Cage maybe? Even if it is team ups with Iron Fist.
>>24585 True.
>>24583 >>24580 >I'm pretty sure he regularly got this treatment even before the movie. I was right. He seems to have gotten this kind of treatment before the movie was released. Although I don't remember when the black panther was announced so it could have then attempting, so they could have been trying to catch windfall from the movie. But the Marvel Masterworks volume released in 2010, a good 8 years before the movie and when the MCU was only 3 films >>24584 >Luke Cage maybe? Even if it is team ups with Iron Fist. More viable, but he doesn't have that "first black superhero" or "first black female superhero" buzz that marvel leans into with storm and black panther. >>24585 I thought Blade was quite different for most of his history in the comics and more part of a cast of characters than one that was focused on. I don't know I never read his comics.
>>24587 It's all just an empty marketing thing.
>>24588 Yeah, but it's a sensible empty marketing thing with Black Panther and one he always seemed to have is what I'm arguing.
>>24590 I suppose so.
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>"Are you sure this will help us sell more comics?" >"Comics?"
>>24880 This kind of shit has exhausted me and exhausted all my goodwill and fondness for the genera. Once the American comic industry collapses I want capeshit to go away and stay go. Give all the other genera a chance for 80 or so years before anyone even dares to think about publishing another super hero comic.
>>24579 >Switch towards comic book stores and abandoning other points of sale How is this a bad thing? By the 70's, the newsstand distribution was a money sink and racket onto itself, especially when it came to unsold books, It got to the point where publishing accounts could just submit affidavits of "sold" books without actual proof to DC/Marvel to scam refunds out of them. In comparison, selling to comic shops at a discount while laying the burden of unsold comics onto the shops was easy money. Manga wouldn't have the foothold it does in America now without the direct market or comics fandom to plant the seeds.
>>24888 >How is this a bad thing? It was a short-sighted move to chase easy money. Instead of addressing the issue of unfavorable newsstand distribution, they run away from the problem despite issues that this would clearly create down the road. It's obvious that limiting sales only to specialized hobby shops would make it more difficult for new readers to get into the hobby. But this shortsightedness is nothing new in comics industry. Ideal way would be to renegotiate these terms or invest into alternative distribution models and formats.
>>24883 It's not the genre that's the problem. It's the companies that don't give a shit stuck in the same old practices that haven't worked for decades along with incompetent talentless faggots making the garbage.
>>24901 >Ideal way would be to renegotiate these terms "Renegotiate" with accounts that were blatantly fucking publishers over on a playing field they had no leverage whatsoever and was already drifting away from comics. >invest into alternative distribution models and formats. The diract market was the alternative in those days. No CCA oversight rendered the Code impotent and meant that indie comics could flourish and the Big Two could actually experiment with comics that wouldn't fly on newsstands, paving the way for edgy imprints like Vertigo and Epic, and the market for "graphic novels" as we know it. In what timeline do you think things could have turned out differently?
>>24572 Sales actually increased in 2011 and stayed a bit higher for a couple years. This was likely due to the New 52. However, they lost all those gains quickly when the SJW shit really went full tilt with Marvel's "All New, All Different" misnamed abomination. >>24579 The CCA fucked comics forever, and then everything else you said is also correct. However, the fact remains that even though everyone thought comics were already at rock bottom, SJWs managed to find a way to blast through bedrock, and now sales and readership are so low that they made the early 2010s look great by comparison. That's very notable. >I put the most fault on the poor management, especially for letting fanboys get too much control. This is a factor, as it lead to things like reader lockout, but it isn't their fault that superhero comics became the dominant genre. That's the fault of the CCA banning practically every other genre, and neutering those that tried to remain. The reason girls don't read comics isn't because of sexism, it's because girls like romance stories and the CCA effectively banned them because romance is tied up with sexuality, which was effectively banned. And SJWs now say they're trying to court female audience, but are too stupid to just revert Patsy Walker into a female Archie clone, like she was very successfully for decades. Instead they take the ridiculous superhero retooling she had, which never really caught on, and just make her SJW, as if that will make women like her. The real biggest problem though is distribution. Normalfags are hardly aware that comics like Batman and Spider-Man are even still published, and they haven't been aware for decades. They're only sold in stores you would never go to unless you were already a fan. That's obviously a ridiculous business strategy. And on top of all that, there are other issues that make it even worse, but those issues are moot if the public isn't even aware your product exists. And when they have been made aware in recent years, it's only from how ridiculously bad the product is. So bad that it becomes a joke, like the nu-New Warriors. >>24880 >at least two mass murdering supervillains in the picture But they get to be with the heroes because they're women! And even I can't tell what the thing on the right is supposed to be. Is it some costume that used to work but has now been butchered by SJWs? Is it Huntress or Black Canary or something? >>24904 Note that Archie Comics sells so much better than other publishers that they aren't even considered to be in the same competition, specifically because they are sold on newsstands. Your points are moot. The negatives are vastly outweighed by the positives, and that's why other companies have been trying to break out of specialty shops for decades, but have kept fucking it up because they're too stupid to change other underlying issues that only developed because of selling only in specialty shops. They still sell issues that are only 1/6 of a story, at ridiculously inflated prices, under the assumption the reader will spend hundreds per month to keep up with the story (because actually it needs tons of tie in issues to be fully understood). They refuse to do proper digests or anthologies, and when they do, and they do sell in places like Wal-Mart, they're not regular stories, they're special stories that are out of continuity and dumbed down and obviously not made with the best talent. And no, this is not the fault of the genre, because none of these things were problems until the mid-1980s. They had normalfags buying normal in-continuity stories from newsstands, because they could follow them and get full stories but still get immersed in the larger series at the same time. They had that balance for half a century, but they fucked it up by catering only to those who would go to specialty shops. And those whales have been literally dying for decades. And now they've been actively telling the whales to fuck off, so they are fucking off, but obviously the SJWs they're trying to court aren't a big enough audience in the first place, and even if they were, they wouldn't read comics.
>>24907 Wouldn't an extremely simple way to fix the distribution model would be to adapt how manga is distributed? Have phonebook-like anthologies of monthly series printed on tissue paper for a low price, then have the individual series sold in volumes on thick pages?
>>24907 Initial sales from New 52 promising a reboot means little when things plummeted fast. A lot of New 52 titles got cancelled really quickly for a reason.
>>24904 Big two were in strong position in 80s and early 90s. They could have used that as a leverage to renegotiate and to put their comics in bookstores. Instead, they were content putting all eggs in one basket of comic book stores. Later, idea of digital distribution was floated around in early 2000s. Both Marvel and DC dismissed it. Then people running comixology back when it was a rating and review site stumbled upon the idea, secured funding, and turned it into a digital comic book store. Marvel and DC's judgement turned out to be wrong again, and comixology was successful enough for Amazon to buy it for over 4 billion dollars. >>24908 Yes, but DC and Marvel liked their speculator dollars in the 70s and 80s when the iron was still hot. They had to see indies be successful with compendiums to realize TPB's true potential. It took them until the late 80s and 90s to finally put effort into collected editions. Now it's indies like Headlopper and crowdfunded comics that are trying out direct to TPB or European model of 45+ pages stories. I thought that Black Label was gong to publish some stories as TPBs right away, but so far they all have been broken into issues. Comics actually used to be published as anthologies first, but over time they were shaved from 60+ pages to 20+, and from at least three stories to one per issue. It was in part due to publishers being greedy, and in part due to economical situation in the U.S.
>>24907 >The real biggest problem though is distribution Even if this was true, there are enough logistical and financial hurdles to make "fixing" it a waste of time and money. Jim Shooter, of all people, has an interesting anecdote about the "problem" >People in and around the comic book industry, and especially creators who aren’t knowledgeable about the business side, often blame poor sales on bad distribution. >I attended a Friends of Lulu meeting some years back at which the main thing being discussed—as is often the case—was the poor and declining sales of comic books, in that instance, especially those by, for or about women. Every one of the several dozen people in that room agreed that the problem was distribution. Except me. >People said the usual: If only the books got “out there…!” Why can’t there be a comic book rack in every Starbucks? The books should be at checkout counters everywhere! Why aren’t there more bookstores selling comics? And why are they so badly displayed in the ones that do sell them? Toys R Us! McDonald’s! Etc. >As the one and only person in the room who knew much about distribution and had experience dealing with all manner of channels of distribution, I finally spoke up. I started to talk about the difficulties. >To sell at the checkout counter you have to pay for the “real estate,” and that’s some pretty expensive real estate. You have to “buy the wire,” that is, the racks. You have to service those racks with your own field force or a jobber—the store personnel aren’t going to take proper care to see that your books, and only your books are in your racks. That’s why the National Enquirer back then had a field force of well over a thousand people. Compare Curtis Circulation, National Distributor for Marvel and many others, which had around half a dozen field reps. >Selling into Toys R Us or any big retail chain is difficult and expensive, usually involving the creation of dumps or other displays. They demand special, deep discounts. They demand special packaging. They set strict conditions for delivery. Then, the charge-backs start. Delivery came an hour late, not during the specified window? Labels on the boxes not placed correctly according to their specs? Displays don’t match specs you were never given? They send you bills for things like that! They squeeze you dry. Hard not to lose money…unless your products blow out the door. Then, after a while, they might start treating you better. >I never got started on Starbucks, bookstores, McDonald’s, etc…. >The Friends of Lulu more or less shouted me down. Then, people who didn’t have a clue went back to expounding about the vast numbers of new readers that could be had if only the publishers weren’t too stupid to pursue their wonderful ideas about getting the books “out there.” They preferred their fantasies. They had no interest in reality. Didn’t want to hear it. >So, I skipped ahead to the part they really didn’t want to hear. To interest vast numbers of new readers, comics would have to be a lot more accessible and a lot more entertaining—in a word, better. >Shouted down again. They were all very sure that the comics they made, their favorites and almost all comics were plenty good enough. Millions of people would love them, if only they got out there! It was a distribution problem, plain and simple. http://jimshooter.com/2011/11/first-this-one-more-thing-about-mass.html/ I recommend reading his posts on distribution. >>24908 >Wouldn't an extremely simple way to fix the distribution model would be to adapt how manga is distributed? No, because anthologies have been hard sells for years. There's no point in bundling shit into a $8-10 book when you're already selling $4 floppies that already act as loss-leaders.
>>24915 >It costs money to increase our distribution Why didn't Archie have this problem? Also, that's why you publish everything together instead of as individual series.
>>24915 >>24917 Also, I don't see the guy's point when comics haven't been traditionally available for the past 30's year. And, since that time, comics have seen their biggest decline in sales. Logically, if you're markets stagnated because of it's recently adopted distribution model, perhaps it's a smart idea to become experimental with how you distribute your books. And, yes, it's going to cost money. However, you're already losing money. So, where is the real loss when you're going to die either way? Better to go out knowing that you did everything possible to survive, than just inching by on life support until you do die.
>>24919 >And, yes, it's going to cost money. However, you're already losing money. Investing in their own business is an alien idea to people in the industry. They have spent decades cutting costs and jacking up prices as much as possible. On rare occasion some money was invested, it was done so with "let's recoup it immediately" attitude. That's why Marvel's attempt at becoming their own distributor in the 90s failed spectacularly. Only other serious investment they have made was Marvel Studios. First Iron Man film only got made because Ike Pearlmutter and Avi Arad were hellbent on turning Marvel into mini-Disney, and pushed through lawsuits, internal politics, and bitching from everyone else in Marvel. That clearly paid off, but then their cost cutting tendencies kicked in again. That's a part of what lead to Marvel Studio splitting from the comics division.
Wouldn't kill paper comcis and send all into digital be better for the survival of the market? Normalfags are dumb on subscription, and phones aren't shit anymore allowing to do most reading on them Not as it currently stands tho, I mean if I pay 200a month to read amazing spiderman I want all 800+ issues and be able to search by date/Writer/artist/storyarc etcetc
>>24932 Holy shit....I either go to sleep or proof read 3 times before posting. Fuck me
>>24932 >Wouldn't kill[ing] paper comics and send all into digital be better for the survival of the market? No. Fucking over your existing market in exchange from one dominated by an Amazon subsidiary isn't a smart trade-up, especially when said subsidiary is being absorbed into the Amazon Kindle ecosystem proper and stripped of its distinguishing features. DC and Marvel have their own "apps" but that leaves every other publisher at the mercy of Amazon, because they certainly do not have the money to build and sustain digital storefronts of their own. And the issue of DRM alone is a pretty big disincentive for people used to owning their books. "Do what Japan does", and "Go digital/direct to bookstores" aren't even unreasonable ideas, they're just ignorant of the logistical hurdles that keep them from being the solutions you think they are.
>>24957 >they're just ignorant of the logistical hurdles that keep them from being the solutions you think they are. That the comics are going to crash regardless because the only thing both companies have been creating for nearly a decade belong in the trash?
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Why does DC hate Superman so much they keep disrespecting him or turning him into a monster? Not even just in comics. Man of Steel, Injustice, The Suicide Squad vs. The Justice League, & Zack Snyder's Justice League. They do all this crap time & time again like they think they need to constantly experiment when the obvious answer is just writing good cohesive, respectful, & structured stories. It's so simple but no they'd rather keep dragging everything through the dirt.
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>>24997 Because a "perfect" man its boring and outdated. People now need characters as grey as possible, not boy scouts.
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>People now need characters as grey as possible It's also pretty sad when you consider the fact that the Superhero genre originated from The Shadow pulps and that is rooted within black and white morality. Modern American Superheroes have strayed too far from their pulp roots.
>>25017 We should have listened to Ditko.
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>>25015 That's fucking stupid. Moral good embodiments who struggle in a world gone wrong are always more entertaining than endless misery. >>25017 Blame the modem obsession with subversion.
>>25020 Wasn't Spider-man flawed even in the original run?
>>25028 When it comes to the original Lee/Ditko run, I think that was mostly because Peter was still of adolescence. It is pretty clear though that if Steve chose to stay with Marvel and continued to draw and write Spider-Man, the character would've became very similar to Ditko's later creations. In Peter's case, he would've went from being a flawed teenage boy, into being the perfect adult man. There are obviously other factors that play into this, but this is just looking at the character and how they would've been written by the co creator himself.
>>25023 >Blame the modem
>>25020 There are things about "objectivism" I like but other thinks I think are dumb. Still I think Steve makes a lot of good points here even if I feel there's a bit of over-correction going on.
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>>25035 Get with the times, old man.
>>25037 That better be wifi 6 compatible.
>>24909 >Initial sales from New 52 promising a reboot means little when things plummeted fast. A lot of New 52 titles got cancelled really quickly for a reason. Cancelling things quickly is good. If they aren't selling, scrap them. I'm of the opinion that 52 titles per month is too much anyway. It's more than they have historically sold during periods of success. However, the fact remains that sales were up and remained up for several years, only dropping significantly with the SJW turn. That's not to say the SJW turn was the only reason things dropped again, but the New 52 clearly was at least a relatively successful marketing campaign. They told most writers to not rely as much on continuity, and then advertised that a bit. One month of that lead to years of increased sales. They should have done that every month. >Later, idea of digital distribution was floated around in early 2000s. Both Marvel and DC dismissed it. Note that one of the big reasons why is because they are so reliant on comic book shops that would be mad if they did too much to pivot away. Instead of ripping the band-aid, they're scared of making specialty shops get mad at them and do things that could hurt their physical media sales, while they're trying to shift to digital anyway. Clearly, the band-aid needs to be ripped, and it should have been decades ago. >Now it's indies like Headlopper and crowdfunded comics that are trying out direct to TPB or European model of 45+ pages stories. DC tried this with their Earth-One series, which was then completely half assed and made moot within like one year when New 52 took away half of the appeal, which was a jumping on point for new readers. Clearly, individual issues of about 30 or less pages are a ridiculous prospect and should no longer be the major method of distribution, but companies are too afraid of change to do anything about it. >>24915 Shooter didn't argue distribution wasn't the problem, he just pointed out more problems with distribution. Clearly, it's still a massive problem. He's just pointing out more things that must be navigated in order to solve it. >>24932 >>24957 It depends on what you consider your market to be, the shops or the readers. The shops are indeed one of the main reasons they don't make their digital offerings actually good, as they see it as competition. However, clearly relying on the shops this much has not worked out for them, as has been discussed in this thread. Shops are dying and have been for decades. And yes, newsstands and magazines are dying and have been for decades. Digital subscription services are the future. No, they're the present. They're the past decade. But when you sign up for one, you can't read all their old issues. It's like signing up for some sort of Simpsons app but you can't watch Seasons 4, 6, and 8, and seasons 3 and 7 are missing random episodes. It's ridiculous. Actually it's even worse, because The Simpsons doesn't rely on autistic continuity. Clearly what needs to be done, even if the transition is difficult, is to transition to digital and larger collections/graphic novels. Floppies are magazines and magazines are dead. Specialty shops are places you don't go unless you're already a fan, but even if that wasn't a problem, trying to sell magazines in the 21st century would be a massive problem. Floppies are essentially tv shows where you go to the store (a special, weird store) and buy the new episode one at a time whenever it comes out. Ridiculous. TV doesn't even work without on-demand online subscription models anymore. That's what comics need to do. Physical comics should be collections and graphic novels for people who want them, but the fact is that most people want digital shit now. I don't. I hate digital shit and only want physical, but I understand that most people disagree, and they pay for subscription services instead. And frankly, for comics, digital subscriptions are a lot more helpful, because with the massive reams of paper to read through, it's incredibly impractical to ever buy it all. It's incredibly impractical to even ever buy all of a single series. And comics for decades have been written so that you need to read tons of other material to fully understand them. So give me a subscription service with all their shit, and I will read it. I understand if they're missing a few licensed things like the time Spider-Man met Bill Murray or The Transformers, but there is no excuse for missing just random regular issues. And there is no excuse for not having proper sorting methods by series, writer, artist, etc. In fact, for comics they should really have fan recommended reading orders right on the app, since that's an issue with modern shit, and it's not like they'd need to do much work to implement it. But everything they do is half assed. But okay, we can put all the old floppies online. What about new floppies? New floppies, new magazines of almost any kind, are a ridiculous idea. Clearly there needs to be a shift to graphic novels as the primary form. Do some big New 52-esque event and bite the bullet. Instead of 12 issues of Batman per year, it's one graphic novel of Batman every six months. Instead of 52 issues per month, it's one graphic novel per week. Or two, if they insist on the same volume of output, but frankly, it's way too much output. They don't need that much. It's more than they did when they were successful. Variety is good, but you don't need 52 different options when they're almost all within the same genre, and are all within the same fictional universe, anyway. If a graphic novel is the same amount of content as six floppies, then successful series can get two per year. Others can get one, and then another can take their place in the other half of the year. Spinoffs can still happen, Batman can have his many spinoffs if they insist, but at least now they'd be easier to coordinate and figure out a reading order, since they come out one (or maybe two) per week, and can be organized so they are released in reading order, and can have their release dates (year and week number) printed on the spine and cover (so the final week of 2022 would be 2022.52). Of course, that's a massive change and they won't do it. And frankly, I think it's too late. They've told their readers to fuck off, and their readers have obliged. I don't see people coming back, even if the distribution model was better. And for such a drastic change to happen, they'd need at least a degree of goodwill from the audience, which they don't have. Maybe if they invested a bunch into actual marketing on normalfag channels, like commercials and stuff, which directed them to the fact that these books were now sold in actual stores, and could be ordered online, and could be read digitally, then maybe they could make a dent. But even normalfags are somewhat aware of how SJW shit has gotten, given how its seeped into the movies and tv shows. They'd need to publicly apologize and promise to change course, and that will never happen. But a proper digital subscription service for back-issues could happen. It would be trivially easy. They're fucking stupid for not doing it earlier. New stuff might be a lost cause, but there is no good excuse for not monetizing their old stuff.
>>24997 In addition to what's been said, the simpler and more direct reason is that Superman movies haven't been terribly successful since the mid 1980s. Batman picked up the torch of successful DC movies, and then normalfags and casuals, including execs and the people they hire, when tasked with making Superman successful again, decided they must have to make him more like Batman. There is also the fact that he is meaningful and represents things. Truth, Justice, and The American Way, to put it one way. SJWs therefore hate him. When they have Superman get buttraped, they are buttraping America, as far as they are concerned. I don't think this explains Snyder, but I do think it explains many other bad versions of the character. >>25015 Wait, what's that second pic? Did Lois Lane merge with The Eradicator or something? I don't mind Eradicator as a character/concept. I mean The Death and Return of Superman is pretty cool. What did they do in the second pic that relates to the text of your post?
>>25062 New 52 needed more oversight as an actual reboot. Not a reboot in name only that keeps a lot of old history for Batman & Green Lantern especially. That's what really hurt them in the long run. Were it a fresh jumping on point, it could've been a much bigger success. >>25063 Yeah Tim Burton & the casual theater going audiences ruined everything. Also true. It's pure spite of breaking the toys of your older brother because he teased you. Just like every modern reboot cartoon or movie.
>>25064 >New 52 needed more oversight as an actual reboot. Actually, a lot of other stuff kept most of its continuity as well. That's the whole reason the first arcs of Action Comics and Justice League were set six and five years in the past, respectively. So they could say that those were the new origins but (pretty much) everything else was still canon. Meanwhile, in the first week of releases, Alec Holland has come back to life after dying in 1970, continuing the story from Brightest Day, one week earlier. Then Superman appears and is like "yeah, being dead. I know what that's like." Then he becomes the Swamp Thing, and they sort of act like he is becoming Swamp Thing again, except no, he isn't, he's just head about the old Swamp Thing who was a copy of his personality. But it's written in a way where if readers don't know that, it's still pretty much fine. They'll just think he is becoming Swamp Thing again or something. Then a few months later he meets this old Swamp Thing, and any pretense of old readers not realizing it wasn't a reboot is out the window. But hopefully by then they understand enough that they aren't too confused by it. And frankly, this is one of the more casual-friendly series from the initial wave of the New 52. And they did this all before several times, most notably with Man of Steel being a series of stories that take place over Superman's whole history, with "the present" being ten years after his first appearance, so that pretty much everything was still canon, except for things specifically contradicted by the new stories. Man of Steel was a "reboot" but the next story took place immediately after The Crisis on Infinite Earths. DC has always wanted to have their cake and eat it to when it comes to reboots. Ironically, it's all stupid when you realize that before 1985, nobody was actually very confused about continuity. Everything was a lot simpler then, simply because of how the stories were written. Continuity wasn't as relied upon as the basis for new stories, so you didn't need to read as much to understand things. When continuity was referenced, an editor's note popped up to fill you in on any details that weren't in the current issue. It worked fine for decades until the writing style changed. I get the idea of why a reboot sounds good. Ultimately, I'm not sure. They've never done one, even though people think they have. Every time they've tried, it's only made things more complicated. And would erasing a character's whole history make things better? Would it even make things less confusing? For two examples of characters who were fully rebooted with the New 52, we could look at Supergirl and Superboy. Supergirl's series was actually pretty good, while Superboy's sucked. Part of that is because Supergirl was already rebooted in 2004 and her continuity was infamously fucked ever since the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Meanwhile, Superboy was well liked and they ruined him. Once Superman got into more continuity heavy stories and dragged them into it, it became a mess for both characters. On the other hand, you have Jonah Hex, who is notably one of the only DC characters who has never had any major parts of his history altered by cosmic events. Every Jonah Hex story is still fully canon, or at least very close to it. But the New 52 Jonah Hex series was very easy to understand, because the stories were mostly standalone. The way they were written was accessible. And actually, they did still feature stories that built on old Hex continuity, but they were done in ways that old readers could appreciate and new readers could still understand the story and not even know they were missing any context. It was an excellent series and not at all rebooted. They did retool it from its pre-New 52 incarnation to feature slightly more of an ongoing story, and tie it in with Batman stuff by having Amadeus Arkham be a supporting character, but these are beside my points. I started reading comics with The Ultimate Universe, largely because it was a reboot. It also helped that early Ultimate Universe stuff was very good. After reading four or five years' worth, I slowly started reading more and more 616 stuff as well, until I just got way more into that than I was into the Ultimate Universe. I've read all the early Ultimate Universe stuff and know every bit of continuity, and I can't say the same for 616, where I'm missing tens of thousands of issues. But I now realize that it doesn't matter as much as I thought it would. Ultimate helped get me on board, but eventually I realized I didn't need a reboot after all. It's a good marketing strat, and that's what New 52 did, but it doesn't help as much as good writing does. And by good writing, I mean the way they wrote pre-1985, when continuity existed but they also understood that every comic was someone's first comic.
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>>25023 >endless misery Yeah, that its pretty much what people want now, no space for any old-fashioned idealization or anything traditionally "good".
>>25078 Those Punisher comics are pretty old. If anything, he should be miserable. Even if it's cathartic to see bad guys die, it's a miserable existence living every day killing shit. USAgent did nothing wrong except calling Falcon a dumbass for defending terrorists.
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>>25079 I don't know If being a "killing machine" its overrated honestly, or at least authors don't know how portrait that properly (Grim Knight was so try-hard). >>25063 >Did Lois Lane merge with The Eradicator or something? Yeah, Its from Tales from the dark multiverse, the most famous stories with a edgy twist.
>>25081 I mean if you wrote a killer Batman like they write modern Batman, he'd be pretty overpowered to a ridiculous degree. Plus it was a dark multiverse story so it was supposed to be tryhard.
>>25079 *except NOT calling Falcon a dumbass
>>25078 >Yeah, that its pretty much what people want now Given the highly negative response to your examples, evidently it's not what people want, it's just what (((they))) want. >>25081 >Yeah, Its from Tales from the dark multiverse, the most famous stories with a edgy twist. I don't have a problem with this. Edgy What If is a reasonable concept. What If major battles were lost? Makes sense.
>>25081 You know what I'm curious about? Why anyone would want Batman to break the no-kill code for a story when having him go up against Red Hood is a far more interesting conflict.
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>>25093 Well naturally the problem comes with constantly making the villains more & more murderous. So it makes Batman look like an incompetent maniac when he just puts them through a revolving door of an asylum just for them to break out to kill more. Riddler plunged Gotham into a post apocalypse black out. Joker has killed countless people even in the New 52 continuity. Mad Hatter drowned hundreds of people once. Basically the idea of being a moral no kill hero & dealing with psychopathic murderers clashes with people too much. Then there's Red Hood. While I'm of the belief that Red Hood adds that needed element of calling out Batman for his hypocrisy & failure to save people, you can't have him in the mainline comics. Because if Red Hood is supposed to be the antithesis to Batman then he needs to kill the supervillains. But supervillains aren't allowed to stay dead. In the minds of these comic companies, they lose profits if they don't push these iconic villains in books constantly. Plus Under the Red Hood only served to make Batman look even worse in people's eyes. He's not willing to kill but he won't even let someone else do it. To the put he'll mortally wound that other person. That's not a hero.
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>>25096 And speaking of Batman being a terrible father.
>>25096 I wish there was a comic with the actual joker coming back and killing all the massmurdering copycats.
>>25096 >Then there's Red Hood. While I'm of the belief that Red Hood adds that needed element of calling out Batman for his hypocrisy & failure to save people, you can't have him in the mainline comics. Because if Red Hood is supposed to be the antithesis to Batman then he needs to kill the supervillains. ^^^This^^^ And dare I say it that's the reason why Manga or hell the og pulp figures like the Shadow DO NOT HAVE THIS problem. If anything the Shadow tells you that wasting legit life threatening villains not only does not ruin your hero's longevity, but you get to refresh new villians in a timely manner, instead of recycling them. But alas capecuck books where there's more than an revolving door of lazy authors prevents that type of thinking.
>>25120 Japan in general knows that, for irredeemable murderous villains, the hero needs to kill them for the sake of peace.
>>25136 Until the series makes a lot of money so the writers have to make up a new villain to fill a spot. Over and over again. They explored this before, I dont remembered the exact story but it did have Batman kill his entire rogues gallery but it didn't solve shit because others took their place. Or you're that autistic READ MANGA spammer going into multiple threads again to bitch about irrelevant bullshit.
>>25141 Maybe something like Dragon Ball where it just keeps going past it's welcome. Most japanese series have an end point or move on to another hero fighting his own villains.
>>25143 And how many times are they going to bring back Frieza from death?
>>25144 I mean they only really did it once if you don't count Cyber Frieza. Wait no twice. Once as Golden Frieza then again after the Super tournament.
>>25141 Speaking of Batman's rogues gallery, is Prometheus any good? I admit I only know of him in passing summary but it sounded interesting and I'd like to read the comic if it's not shit.
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>>25141 >Or you're that autistic READ MANGA spammer going into multiple threads again to bitch about irrelevant bullshit. I'm not that guy, but there's also more interesting rivalries depending on the genre. Say in the case of long running racing French Bande Dessin Micheal Valliant, In that long running sports racing series, Valliant's villains can scale up in weird ways. A common theme in the series is the Valliant automotive family business out in France in several of the 70+ volumes deals with sometimes reoccurring drivers like the disaster driving Bob Cramer, rivals to the family business, Euro Mafioso types, and of course Chinese Multinational conglomerate Leader Automotive run by hidden Buddhist monks out of a complex temple in Himalayas. No I am not making this up. And on top of the mad racing action in those books, not once do the villains ever get old because there's enough natural tension in the international world of automotive business and sport that you can cycle in and out your regular heels on a lower frequency basis. Also because bande desssin album schedules operate more on an annual or monthly basis you don't get that kinda villain burnout the more weekly US cape books do.
>>25150 >ou don't get that kinda villain burnout the more weekly US cape books do. I keep seeing this said(assumedly all by you), but most capeshit was always released monthly, even when comics were popular. A popular character may get multiple separate titles, but even those didn't release often enough to be considered "weekly" releases. Not that this invalidates the entirety of this post, but if you're going to argue about capeshit at least get basic facts right.
>>25150 But the difference between a racing comic & a capeshit comic is that there's no life or death stakes in a racing comic. Whereas in something like Batman comics, more people die because Batman doesn't kill them or let others kill them. That's why serialized comics don't work. Because you can't have a permanent cast of villains who love mass killing but act like the hero is any sort of positive power against them.
>>25152 > you can't have a permanent cast of villains who love mass killing Ever consider that is the issue?
>>25153 I never dismissed it as an issue. Both are problems. While the problem of comics as is can be remedied with little to no mass murdering villains, on the other end that problem of serialized comics without end on a loop isn't fixed at all.
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>>25152 >no life or death stakes in a racing comic Dear anon, you are a complete functionally illiterate faggot of the highest order, this is just a sample of the shit that's currently going on Micheal Valliant in the lead up to Volume 7 and through out the adventure named Macao. There's corporate intrigue in the Valliant family trying to get it's business back after being fucked over by Elite Motors, one of their major Patriarch COMMITTED OUTRIGHT FUCKING SUICIDE OFF OF A FUCKING CLIFF, and left with only a racing team as an independent, and our star had to do a life or death drive from corporate hitmen looking to ice him with sensitive documents on cell phone to get his company back. Yeah retard, there were no life or death stakes in a racing comic.
>>25151 >I keep seeing this said(assumedly all by you), but most capeshit was always released monthly, even when comics were popular. Well that just goes to show you how detached most of us are now from big 2 corp cape shit now that we're even confusing older facts. But you know other than even having to go to Euro comics to show how bad villinary is handled in contrast, I mean even old long running legit weekly serials like newspaper strips like Dick Tracy (the anon who rightly corrected me, never bothered to bring up to reinforce his point*) never seem to run into this problem with running out or running down villains for use. See the rogues gallery list: http://dicktracy.info/comic-strip/rogues-gallery/hoodlums/ . But then again it just goes to show you that big cape books can never get that type of fidelity to their peers on other continents if you don't bother to have stable ownership and creative teams that can make their villains challenging and fresh. Even if they're survivors. *I'm going to presume that the anon in question just doesn't have a solid history of older dramatic strips like Dick Tracy, Tor, Prince Valiant, etc.. because said anon probably was born somewhere in the 80's to not remember that as a solid counterpoint.
>>25170 Anon you're very much overreacting. Second off, there's personal stakes like this story then there's stakes of the world like in a Batman comic. My point is there's lives at stake for Batman's lack of action in comics where there's no end point & there's a revolving door of villains that never stop killing.
>>25173 >Anon you're very much overreacting. >Posted clear evidence that there are life and death (even international) stakes in a sports comic that said anon dismissed and said didn't exist in a comic book that ran for over 50 years in Europe. It's not a overreaction when you get clowned on for being a moron with little knowledge of comics outside of the big 2 capes and 80's to 90's Burger land. That's okay we all start somewhere before we developing better tastes. But the first rule of thumb is not making yourself an absolute tool in front of everybody by lying about stuff you know nothing about on the boards.
>>25174 Anon again the point is not if there's any life or death stakes at all. It's the scope of the stakes. Personal versus world, literal or in the sense of the setting wide, stakes. Again going back to Batman, it's citywide problems where lives all over the city are at stake & how it's a shitty thing to have those murderous stakes when there's no point or goal to the series. Where as your racing comic at least seems to have a point.
>>25062 >Of course, that's a massive change and they won't do it. And frankly, I think it's too late. They've told their readers to fuck off, and their readers have obliged. I don't see people coming back, even if the distribution model was better. And for such a drastic change to happen, they'd need at least a degree of goodwill from the audience, which they don't have. At times I am afraid that the comic book market and perception in the U.S. are so messed up that it will be impossible to rebuild. Especially now that Amazon fucked up Comixology. It used to be a decent enough platform to self publish on before recent changes. >>25151 Things have changed since then. People have too much stuff to choose from, and not enough time snf money to follow monthly floppies. Meanwhile, a manga that is sold in straight to tankabon format in the U.S. is selling like hotcakes. I think that people will continue to look for the best price to entertainment ratio. That's why streaming services are doing well as TV and theaters are in trouble. Manga simply offers more value than floppies do. I think that the above trend will only accelerate, especially if predictions about upcoming financial crisis are true. >>25170 Your posts made me quite interested in Michel Vaillant. New ones are easy to get in English, but not the older ones. How does the new series compare to the old one? Is the new series from 2012 and on a good point to start before I pick up some of the old stories? >>25173 Maybe I am misinterpreting these posts, but I think what >>25170 might be getting at is that characters and worlds in big two comics are ultimately very static. Very little changes, things are shaken up only to be reset few months or years later, characters come back from the dead, and noting matters ultimately.
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>>25179 >Maybe I am misinterpreting these posts, but I think what >>25170 might be getting at is that characters and worlds in big two comics are ultimately very static. Thank you, that's precisely what I am getting at. And once again when there's little studio ownership or direction with a steady team, you'll keep getting that staticness with big two cape books and their endlessly revolving doors of staff that never sticks around at all. And knowing the mess of ownership rights for anything under Marvel or DC, outside of their prime Epic/Vertigo lines or rando one offs like Watchmen, you'll never gain that type of artistic fidelity ever again for story telling for those books. Remember even Judge Dredd being the flagship that survived for 2000 AD has more artistic consistency than any big 2 book in English at the moment. >>25179 >Your posts made me quite interested in Michel Vaillant. New ones are easy to get in English, but not the older ones. How does the new series compare to the old one? Is the new series from 2012 and on a good point to start before I pick up some of the old stories? Well you're somewhat in luck, Europe comics which is doing the current Season 2 run right now has just released a recent book of shorts to get you up to speed which incidentally where the shorts that made it a hit in TinTin magazine. And following the 2012 series (aka Season 2) does get you quickly up to speed with the Valliant household. I will say that there have been some interesting reprints out in Europe if you're familiar with any of the other Romantic Languages there was even a set put out in France just for the Leader issues and chances are you might be able get a good deal on them. >Also posting more car crash scenes as well to remind anon here >>25175 that there are still life and death stakes and international intrigue in an auto racing comic.
>>25179 But that's exactly what I'm trying to tell racing anon. >>25181 Damn it anon, you autistic bastard. How many times do I gotta repeat myself? The point is PERSONAL STAKES in a race exist YES but what I'm talking about as a bad thing is high CITY WIDE STAKES in big two comics.
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>>25182 >But that's exactly what I'm trying to tell racing anon. Yeah but you're bad at it and you started off with from the very beginning as stated : >But the difference between a racing comic & a capeshit comic is that there's no life or death stakes in a racing comic You keep changing the terms and definitions of the life or death stakes to compare between these genres just to clown on an argument. And I bring the freshness to this argument with in depth answers and even fresher books to pull anons away from the 2Burger Capeshit books. Protip: Stop trying to respond to threads and shit posts from your damn cellphone maybe you'll get somewhere. But hey let's go and prove once again that Michel Valliant (a French racing comic book) proves you wrong once again. >The point is PERSONAL STAKES in a race exist YES but what I'm talking about as a bad thing is high CITY WIDE STAKES in big two comics. Well one of the early Michel Valliant stories does the big city wide stakes story you're clamoring about. In one of the hit shorts in Tintin magazine in Battle of Highway 7, wherein he fights the French Marseilles Mafia who's running a racketeering business trying to muscle and place various hard working lorrie drivers out of business in Marseilles, and they were most likely going to kill him for his interference. That counts as per your definition : - City Wide Stakes - Check - Life or Death Situation - Check for dubs boi And that's not getting into the Leader story line where they're up against Leader corporation as super racing heels, because guess what Valliant is a fictional car / transportation company outta France, while Leader is a Chinese / Tibetan multinational conglomerate that does everything from Cars to Paramilitary contracts and they run endless international secret engineering/tech bases around the world, and numerous times they want to take out the Valliant firm (from sabotage on the international circuits to high corporate espionage to out right murder) to the become only Automotive Engineering / Military contractor company on the face of the planet. But hey, according to you this just doesn't exist in this long running series compared to Batman because as you said from the beginning anon : >But the difference between a racing comic & a capeshit comic is that there's no life or death stakes in a racing comic. *Mike Drop.* And go read more Euro comics.
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>>25185 I'm sorry you're too autistic to grasp my basic words & concepts. The fact you flipped out of someone not knowing some obscure french comic is proof enough you're unstable. >mike drop Really nigger?
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>>25186 >The fact you flipped out of someone not knowing some obscure french comic is proof enough you're unstable.* >Pulp sports comic that's been around since 1957 since it's debut in TinTin Magazine a magazine with millions in circulation that would still outsell a big two comic in that same time period and is well known all across Europe. https://www-bdparadisio-com.translate.goog/scripts/detail.cfm?Id=391&_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp >17 Million Albums Sold >Inspiration for several generations of race drivers >Obscure Dear anon that's not now this works.
>>25191 >across europe There's your problem.

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So what's the current betting pool on how much Warner-Discovery is going to cut?
>>25199 At this point, the best investment would be to do away with a mainline continuity completely & just let the IPs exist as multiverses each writer can just do whatever they want with. At least then no one would be turned off by the impossible to approach mainline shit.
>>25200 >>25200 >ust let the IPs exist as multiverses each writer can just do whatever they want with They already regularly release out of continuity shit. No one reads most of it, since the writers are still garbage.
>>25208 I wouldn't say that. Stuff like The White Knight series has been going pretty well. The thing is they can at least market that sort of strategy to new readers who wouldn't even bother to read comics because they're so impenetrable. Doesn't solve any of the other problems like, as you said, shitty writers.
>>25208 No marketing or plot guidelines are going to help you if all you have are shitty writers. Saying shit writers ruin things is a moot point, shit writers will ruin anything.
>>25210 >Doesn't solve any of the other problems like, as you said, shitty writers. It's more than shitty writers at the big 2. Look the Big 2 only worked when you had ham fisted and disciplined editorial, and basically at this point the big 2 have none. No discipline means no continuity planning, no consistent art nor on boarding or apprenticing for new artists.
>>25238 Yeah writers are only one of the many many problems with the comic industry. Like you said, oversight is needed to hold things together & give them a direction.
>>25242 More like they need to stop letting interns from tumblr enacting their fan fiction on established ips.
>>25250 That too but that doesn't fix the problem with serialized never ending comics that want to be taken seriously as one long narrative that never ends.
>>25251 You seem to be implying that that factor stops comics (or at least the big two main universe ones that I know you're talking about) from being good, but there are many comics (including big 2 main universe comics) are good. So clearly that is not the problem. Identify the problems that bad comics have but good comics don't. >>25175 >Anon again the point is not if there's any life or death stakes at all. It's the scope of the stakes. Personal versus world, literal or in the sense of the setting wide, stakes. Again going back to Batman, it's citywide problems where lives all over the city are at stake & how it's a shitty thing to have those murderous stakes when there's no point or goal to the series. Try reading a Batman comic some time. Stories typically last from 1-12 issues, and some are citywide stuff, some are personal stuff that only affects Batman or his friends, some are more internal, some are more external. Read what you're complaining about. >>25150 You know, for all this talk of capeshit villains getting old, when you actually go and read the books, most villains don't actually show up that often. I've been reading all of Spider-Man, and am so far up to about 1980, including Amazing, Spectacular, and Team-Up. So far The Scorpion has showed up twice. The Chameleon has shown up only two or three times. Mysterio maybe three or four. There are three Green Goblins but each only shows up a couple times and the story arc that continues across all of them is interesting. Doc Ock has multiple longer arcs, but they're very varied, and I can't say I'm bored just because I see "oh, it's another Doctor Octopus story." Across about 300+ issues of Spider-Man, I feel no "villain burnout." Most villains actually appear rarely, and their stories are interesting when they do appear. The problem you're describing is due to bad writers. Good writers like Ditko, Romita, and Conway, can make me excited in an arc about a third guy becoming The Green Goblin. Modern writers can't because they're bad writers. It's not the characters' fault, and it's not the fault of the fact that they've appeared before. It's the fault of the fact that the writers writing the stories you don't like (at least the ones that you don't like and have actually read) are bad. >>25144 >>25146 Super is stupid, but it at least seems somewhat self aware. Pic related. My favorite part is that Frieza doesn't listen, and he does come back to life again later. Also, Frieza came back to life a few more times in filler and movies and GT. The Janemba movie and the Super 17 arc. And the thing with Hatchiyak where there are ghosts of all the previous villains, but I think they aren't really their ghosts and are just copies. And if you wanna be really autistic you can count time travel stuff from the video game lore, where they have to fight Frieza again and he's more powerful because he's fused with a Dark Dragon Ball or Demon God Ki or all sorts of other stupid shit. >>25147 IIRC Prometheus first appears in an arc of JLA from the late '90s. It's good, but it's not a Batman story, it's a JLA story. And it's Morrison, so frankly the arc is okay on its own and you really have to read his whole run to see the big picture and get what all the fuss is about. And half the fuss is that Morrison was just the first guy in over a decade who was allowed to just have all the characters people actually liked be on the Justice League.
>>25297 Outliers among the trash don't make a good company/line of comics. Just because a run can be good doesn't erase shared continuity with past & future runs or the wider universe. The simple issue is when you're associated with an entire universe you don't get to stand out for your merits. The characters will be ruined again & again. It's just an endless cycle. That's why people read indies or manga that actually have a point. They don't go on forever treading the same water. Their actions & stakes actually have permanence. Big two comics don't have this.
>>25305 Oh. It's you. Read the comics you're talking about, idiot. Your central claims related to continuity have been shown to be objectively false many times. The way you interpret art is also stupid. You are an idiot for thinking that something that happens in Action Comics #1045 or whatever they're on now can somehow retroactively ruin a storyline that came out eighty years ago. Once the story is out and finished that's it. A new story can benefit from an old one, or be worse because it uses an old one badly, but it can't retroactively make a story that I already read worse. I already read it, and I can ignore it. You have to be a special kind of retard to see modern garbage and then think "oh, this is a sequel to a story I thought was great, but since this new thing is shit I guess I have to hate the book I loved before, which is still on my shelf, just like it was before I read this new shit." Nobody reads indies either, because they're also SJW shit, sold only at specialty shops, and most people don't know they exist. Most of the same problems that face the big 2. People read manga because in many cases, yes, it's very good, depending on the work. It also has the help of anime that are actually generally faithful being a good entryway into the hobby, moreso than cartoons and other adaptations of american capeshit, which is almost never as faithful as your average manga-based-anime, and therefore doesn't allow for the same audience crossover. And to talk shit about continuity, yes, I think reader lockout is a very significant issue for keeping away people who have some interest in beginning to read western comics. There is too much emphasis on continuity, stories aren't written to allow new readers to understand any particular issue, and stories are too hard to follow due to much too frequently being many issues long, many times with issues that aren't even in the same series. It's not that casuals don't wanna see The Joker show up again, because guess what? They do. Casuals fucking love The Joker. They want to see him show up again. But they don't know which Joker story to read first, and the way the stories are written makes them feel like they can't just pick up any issue and start reading, which they could up until the late '80s, but they can't anymore, and telling someone to start with stories from 35 years ago might not sound like it makes sense to casuals. Just say you don't like the stories. Say you don't like the premises. Say you don't like the genre. Say you don't like the style in which the stories are typically written. All those things would be perfectly respectable opinions. But when you start saying objective things, you just keep saying the same objectively false things. Either actually try reading what you're talking about or stop trying to pretend you know more than you do. Maybe you're one of those casuals that doesn't know where to start because of that reader lockout issue. Autists here would be happy to help, both so they can have an excuse to get autistic about their hobby, as is the purpose of the board, and so they can finally get you to learn a thing or two so your complaints can actually have a little more basis in fact.
>>25319 >You are an idiot for thinking that something that happens in Action Comics #1045 or whatever they're on now can somehow retroactively ruin a storyline that came out eighty years ago <You are an idiot for thinking that something that happens in the Star Wars sequel trilogy can somehow retroactively ruin the original trilogy <You are an idiot for thinking that something that happens in Final Fantasy Origins can somehow retroactively ruin Final Fantasy <You are an idiot for thinking that something that happens in Prometheus can somehow retroactively ruin Alien <You are an idiot for thinking that something that happens in Spectre can somehow retroactively ruin Casino Royale <You are an idiot for thinking that something that happens in Terminator: Dark Fate can somehow retroactively ruin a Terminator 2 <You are an idiot for thinking that something that happens in Halo 5 can somehow retroactively ruin Halo: MCC
>>25322 Yes. All of those things are true. The sequels can be bad, and partially because they don't use the elements from their predecessors effectively. The predecessors are still the same as they always were. There is no time traveler going back in time and changing them as they were being made. Just ignore the bad shit.
>>25323 >All of those things are true. No, it's not. Seeing and experiencing the direction those series took in their recent installments have been so egregious with insulting the fans that it sours the entire franchise to the point that people are sick for ever enjoying the content in the first place, drop any future interest in it entirely, and desire that everyone involved and the franchise itself crashes and falls into obscurity. And, the ONLY way one can return is after having forgotten about anything to do with the series for several years, and being caught off guard in returning to the original material (Sometimes even kicking and screaming).
>>25324 How very sad for those extreme autists. I'll be here enjoying many more enjoyable, non-ruined works of art, because although I am obviously extremely autistic, I'm not so autistic that I hate Dr. No just because No Time To Die is garbage.
>>25319 Nigger I did read comics. That's how I know this shit. Objectively it's bad fucking writing to lack the basics of story telling structures like big two comics lack & have lacked from the beginning. Were they not written as serious continuous pieces of a universe with constant retcons to make "sense" then it'd be a lot more excusable. But Looney Tunes they are not. You're supposed to take it seriously despite nothing fucking mattering & characters never aging until it's plot convenient.
>>25332 Again, if you read them you'd be aware of the many permanent changes that have happened. The many stories that ended (and yeah, I know you consider a story and its sequel to just be one story, but no, Goldfinger and Dr. No are different stories). The many characters that ended. Hell, you'd be aware of all these things if you just read the posts made in reply to you before, but you don't. The things you say are frequently objectively false. The fact that your particular kind of autism prevents you from understanding that sequels are different stories and prevents you from actually reading the stories you're talking about anyway hurts your ability to discuss these matters.
>>25358 Robin always becoming Nightwing is not the kind of permanence I mean & you know it. I'm talking deaths, handing off of mantles, aging, relationships, & history. Bond movies aren't all the same universe. The comparison doesn't make sense. Marvel has followed one continuous mainline since the beginning while DC has had reboots constantly over the decades but they're basically just retoolings of the universe from that point until they do it again. But even then everything that came before still matters to their books now & everything after still makes the old stuff worthless retroactively.
>>25358 And on what fucking earth is a sequel a different story?! No sequels are sequels. A lot of times in movies you can ignore a blatant cashgrab sequel to just watch the original for the original first sequel but that doesn't erase the fact those movies happened. Nor the fact they ruined the franchise forever. Look at Terminator, Alien, Predator, Friday the 13th, or Jurassic Park.
>>25362 >I'm talking deaths, handing off of mantles, aging, relationships, & history. The fact that you're even saying these things don't happen sounds absurd to anyone whoa actually reads the stories. Also, you disregard Dick Grayson but then say you want to see handling off of mantles, aging, relationships, and history, when he is an example of all those things. If the history didn't matter as much as it did, things would be a lot simpler and there would be much less reader lockout. >Bond movies aren't all the same universe. The comparison doesn't make sense. You seriously think Dr. No and Goldfinger are different universes? Aside from that one early Casino Royale movie, and Never Say Never Again, the rest of them were all presented as one universe until the second Casino Royale. Was presented as a reboot (and a half assed one at that, since they kept the new M from the last couple movies). It's evident you don't care about the Bond series either, which is fine, but don't say such absurd things as if you know what you're talking about. Dr. No to Die Another Day are all one universe, and do have recurring elements that confirm it, beyond the actors. Elements such as James's history with Tracy. >DC has had reboots constantly over the decades but they're basically just retoolings of the universe from that point until they do it again. But even then everything that came before still matters to their books now >But even then everything that came before still matters to their books now Exactly. Because they're not reboots. You just said it yourself. If the stuff that came before still happened it's not a reboot. However, the fact that they market it in a way where casuals and semi-casuals think they're reboots is a problem. They want the advantages of a reboot without the problems, and they haven't learned that they can't have their cake and eat it too. So they market it like a reboot, which makes people like you mad, but also gets a few people interested. But then it isn't a reboot, so it actually still leaves many casuals confused, and casuals like you don't read anyway so you get mad and don't even realize it's not a reboot, despite being explained to you many times. >everything after still makes the old stuff worthless retroactively. If only that were the case, understanding newer comics would be much simpler. >And on what fucking earth is a sequel a different story?! All of them. Jurassic Park 1 tells a story. Jurassic Park 2 tells a different story. They're both in the same universe. They're different stories. >Nor the fact they ruined the franchise forever. Look at Terminator, Alien, Predator, Friday the 13th, or Jurassic Park. Ruined people's interest/hope in seeing new ones? sure. Ruined the old ones? No. If you're too stupid to enjoy Alien just because you don't like Prometheus, that's your problem. That's very sad for you, because Alien is an excellent movie.
>>25362 >Robin always becoming Nightwing Also, the way you phrase this is weird. I'm not referring to Robin becoming Nightwing in different universes. Most alt universes don't matter to what we're talking about, because they're alt universes, and the one alt universe that would be important, Earth-Two, does not have Robin become Nightwing, he just becomes a grown up Robin. But of course I've argued with you before and know you haven't read the stories you talk about, so you're too dumb to even know what Earth-Two is, despite having it explained to you many times. You're too dumb to read the story and see that Earth-One and New Earth are the same universe, with the same people, even though that's a central plot point in The Crisis on Infinite Earths, which has its last several issues take place after the universe has changed its name. You haven't actually read any comics from the period immediately after the Crisis, when you'd see they're all the same characters as before it, dealing with the ramifications of it. You've never actually read Zero Hour and have no idea who Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner are, or how their stories are entirely based on the stuff before it still being canon. You have no idea what Infinite Crisis or One Year Later or 52 are, since if you did have the slightest inkling of that story you'd know that things didn't start over (and also it heavily relies on pre-crisis stuff also still being canon). Maybe you're vaguely aware of the New 52, but then didn't actually bother to read things like Morrison's Batman or Johns's Green Lantern (though admittedly, this era did a slightly better job at getting writers to stop referencing old continuity as much for the first few months, aside from the two above major exceptions. Though there were still further exceptions like Superman talking about his death in Swamp Thing #1). You have no idea what Rebirth is and probably think it was a reboot when all it was was editorial telling writers to talk about old continuity more, after telling them to talk about it less for the couple years previous. Just try reading the things you're talking about. Or at least don't pretend you know what you're talking about. Either way.
>>25367 >>25369 You know we've done this song & dance dozens of times now. Not gonna keep repeating myself because you just stubbornly refuse to accept comic books suck.
>>25371 Just realize you are a faggot too and everything will be good.
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It's another fucking "the multiverse is in peril from an unstoppable cosmic force" plot AGAIN! AFTER A FUCKING YEAR OF THIS LAST YEAR WITH DEATH METAL!
>>25391 >The Flash of China >Dino-Cop >Mary Marvel >Aquawoman >Captain Carrot >Thunderer >Dr Multiverse >President Superman >The GReat Darkness I thought modern comics DIDN'T require that you have an extensive knowledge about the entirety of the DC multiverse for nearly the past century. Who are these people?
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>>25394 Blame Grant Morrison.
Somebody please explain me the overwhelming success of manga beyond "west bad japan good", preferable without conspiracies
>>25400 Manga was always a growing market (Along with anything Japanese, its the whole eastern mysticism is exotic and Japan just had a healthy/growing entertainment industry) but with comics constantly shooting itself in the foot with poor writing and capes dominating everything, it wasn't a surprise people got bored quickly. On top of that, events like the Comics Code of Authority and Disney effectively brainwashing multiple generations that all drawn visual medium is for kids, inflicted long lasting wounds on the industry. There's other things too, how the industry is set up, unions, marketing and etc... But in the end of the day the suits at the very top are just old and the people they hire are out of touch.
>>25403 I'd say that the enactment of CCA sealed the fate of western comics/media to forever be stuck in a state of garbage. Its that old chestnut of those with some semblance of power being unable to keep up with the times and incapable of realizing that they might not know whats best for the world going out of there way to lock things in a state of stagnation for with a slew of nonsensical laws/rules of created solely for their own benefit. As a result the chilling effects are >Anyone interested in such things will only ever consume and create things in that manner >Those that don't will never find any foothold or safety unless they appease said powers by "kissing the ring" >It will keep going that way forever until something absolutely catastrophic happens and causes everything to collapse forcing it to be rebuilt I think we're kind of seeing that take place right now, but I should note that last part is neither inherently good or bad. If the only people that survive after the cataclysm are retarded communist ideologues then the industry will just be rebuilt by retards pushing a different kind of agenda. Realistically the biggest problem is that if people are forced, or believe that they forced, to think/act/behave in a very specific way "or else" the end result is a low to no trust society filled with people that do things solely out of fear or necessity which means nothing true or real can ever naturally come about (or that when it does it will be the equivalent of the 30 minutes hate and that person will be beaten into the "appropriate shape")
>>25400 Manga has: >more genres to choose from >covers all demographics so there's something for everyone >has a consistent writer/artist individual or team >art that expresses the motion of action way better >rarely clutters action with endless dialogue bubbles >easy to access given they start that volume 1 >have actual endings with story progression & permanence >even when a manga series gets a reboot it's usually by someone completely different & you don't need to read the original to understand the reboot >not nearly anywhere close to infected with modern day woke thinking forcing diversity or inclusion >better prices per volume compared to the average trade paperback comic volume
>>25400 The ability to cross-market manga with their anime adaptations probably plays a huge part. When was the last time a manga series became a top seller across the Pacific without an anime attached to it? >>25403 >>25407 >the CCA killed/sealed the fate of comics People repeat this but it's telling nobody talks about developments that undermined the Code down the line, like Warren's horror magazines, the unapproved Spidey stories that paved the way for changes of the Code, underground comics, and the direct market.
>>25400 Something something comic book crash of 1993. The manga industry is a very profitable market, I won't deny that, but I think the decisive factor here is that the american national industry had a big downfall in 1993 and never recovered from that, to add salt to the injury by the time the crash happened the american comics were dedicated to obsessive fans only rather than actual young readers, the (not so) big two just lost their expertise regarding making comics with children appeal. Take in contrast the french market. The maga is a big part of their industry, however they still produce comics with appeal among the young demography and most of them look way better and interesting than any modern capeshit. I personally believe the modern american comic situation makes more sense if you compare it with the videogame crash of 1983: Most american companies died so japanese companies took their place and filled their niches.
>>25410 The problem with them "undermining" it is that it inherently relies on things staying the exact same for said underground/counter-culture comics to prosper thus feeding into the shit system and emboldening it and brings it back too the problem of "Those that don't will never find any foothold or safety unless they appease said powers by "kissing the ring". Its not the "rule" merely the exception to it and is often allowed to do so to serve as a stress release to quell those that are disgruntled and fool into thinking that times are somehow changing.
>>25410 >When was the last time a manga series became a top seller across the Pacific without an anime attached to it? Koyoharu Gotouge, Ryoji Hirano, and Spy X Family.
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>>25414 You should probably say the actual manga name rather than the mangaka.
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>>25417 Kimetsu No Yaiba was the highest sold manga the year the anime was adapted. This proves the other anons point if anything. Granted it was selling somewhat well before then, but it's a fucking Shounen Jump series, is that shocking?
>>25420 No but the fact it was a new original series but sold so well before the anime shows you don't always need an anime to get sales going. Of course afterwards it skyrocketed.
>>25410 >When was the last time a manga series became a top seller across the Pacific without an anime attached to it? When was the last time any notable manga was good enough to get an anime adaption but not enough to get an English translation? Feels like the entire sample is poisoned because things already have to be doing well to get translations and adaptions so obviously any translations are going to coincide with adaptions.
>>25414 >>25417 KnY wasn't a top seller until post-anime adaption. Unless you're running with some other definition of top seller. How much do you need to sell to be considered in the top?
>>25391 Be thankful it took a year. I stopped even trying to keep up with current stories, despite still enjoying them at the time, when Forever Evil ended only to be immediately followed by Multiversity, Convergence, and Darkseid War, all within one year. And I loved Forever Evil and Multiversity, and was excited for Convergence and Darkseid War, and when I read them later, I loved them too. But I just couldn't be bothered to keep up with all this shit. Big giant crossovers are cool but get tiring, especially when they expect you to read so many issues each to get the full story. They should be rare, but since 1984, they've happened practically every year. And now most are forgotten and not considered terribly important to overall continuity, but you wouldn't know that if you were trying to keep up at the time. It's funny how Infinite Crisis markets itself as a direct sequel to Crisis on Infinite Earths, but they already did that with Legends, one year after Crisis on Infinite Earths. And Zero Hour in 1994 already tried to pretend Legends and all the other yearly crossovers that followed it were never intended to be important after all, and Zero Hour was the real sequel to Crisis on Infinite Earths, only for Infinite Crisis to treat Zero Hour as unimportant and not the real sequel, 11 years later. >>25394 >I thought modern comics DIDN'T require that you have an extensive knowledge about the entirety of the DC multiverse for nearly the past century. What gave you that impression? >>25400 Better adaptations that could thus more easily lure in new fans. Manga adaptations into anime are generally actually faithful, they follow the actual story. If you watch the Dragon Ball anime, the biggest differences are additional content, but you get practically everything that was in the manga. If you watch even the most faithful comic book adaptations, they're never that kind of faithful. The X-Men and Spider-Man cartoons are great, and they try to adapt many elements from those comics, but they don't just start telling the stories beat for beat like the comics did. They cut up and rearrange things, not to mention making up new things and censoring others. And no comic book adaptations ever get autistic enough to show the relationships built through crossovers and such. The DCAU and MCU get closest, but again, their adaptations are not at all as faithful as your average manga-based anime, and thus still lack depth you'd get in the original works, whereas even Dragon Ball Z doesn't have that problem. It's also easier to start reading manga due to lack of multiverses that started in 1938, thus new readers don't feel that they either need to start in 1938 or find a "jumping on point." Of course you don't really need to start reading in 1938, and you don't need to read every story in the whole universe to get it, but it's very understandable why a prospective new reader would feel they would. Meanwhile, if they want to read all of Dragon Ball or One Piece, it's daunting, it's long, but the 1000 chapters of One Piece might be comparable to the 1000 issues of Action Comics, they're not at all comparable to the 50,000+ issues of the DC Multiverse that all share continuity with Action Comics, and that continuity does become increasingly important over the years. You could read the first 200 issues of Action Comics no problem, but after a while you'll start seeing a lot of crossovers. By issue 750 or whatever, you'll have a problem if you aren't reading Superman and Man of Steel as well, and then Justice League and Supergirl and Superboy, and it all spirals out from there. And at a certain point you realize you don't have to actually read all that shit, but it makes sense for a new person to think you do. Comics also have all sorts of other problems with this like price and distribution, but frankly, practically everyone who reads manga in the west is pirating anyway. Maybe the fact that WB and Marvel actually did an okay job fighting piracy in the 2000s, compared to manga, actually hurt their readership in the long run. But now it's just as easy to pirate comics as it is manga, so that doesn't work anymore. And also, modern comics are shit and normal people only talk about them, or even hear about them, when they make the news due to being bad on purpose, like that terrible version of the New Warriors they tried to sell a while back. As has been said, comics have been kept into one genre for decades, partially by the Comics Code, then by momentum. But frankly, it's been a long time since then, and there are plenty of good comics that aren't capeshit. They just aren't as successful, but fans can easily point to them. But casuals just don't care. Casuals want capeshit, they don't want westerns or war comics or horror as much as they want capeshit, or else they could pick from a wide variety of non capeshit. But they don't.
>>25523 >Comics also have all sorts of other problems with this like price and distribution, but frankly, practically everyone who reads manga in the west is pirating anyway. The top 3 manga publishers in the West sold over 300 Million dollars worth of manga combined in 2021. For context, scholastic sold less than 150 million dollars worth and DC itself sold less 50 million. Manga is currently the most profitable type of comic to sell in the West. https://www.comicsbeat.com/looking-at-npd-bookscan-2021-and-its-a-doozy/#how-sausage-is-made
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I hate comics.
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Remember this is what the MCU is gonna be more like from now on. Endless modern woke writing.
>>25523 >They just aren't as successful, but fans can easily point to them. But casuals just don't care. Casuals want capeshit, they don't want westerns or war comics or horror as much as they want capeshit, or else they could pick from a wide variety of non capeshit. But they don't. I think part of it, too, is that you don't know if, going into the comic, if it will remain it's own story or spiral into the publisher's multiverse. Not to mention that no one actually numbers their damn volumes. Also, it seems like the ONLY alternative to capeshit, coming out of the U.S. is some flavor of horror or edgelord comics. As a personal note, something I've noticed is that none of the comics every look enticing to read. None of the characters look attractive or appealing in any way.
>>25523 >They just aren't as successful, but fans can easily point to them. But casuals just don't care. Casuals want capeshit, they don't want westerns or war comics or horror as much as they want capeshit, or else they could pick from a wide variety of non capeshit. But they don't. I think part of the reason is that once you exhaust most of the good ones, you end up with a lot of comics that feel as if they're prototype's for TV shows. A lot of indie comic books feel rushed like, they could only go on for much longer, but they don't. Part of the reason I started reading capeshit comics is that the runs typically last longer, and I'm ok with jumping off if things get shitty or annoying.
>>25525 Yes, but while I have no stats to back this up, I'm willing to bet almost all of those readers also pirate a lot of manga, and just buy some of their favorites. That's how I got into both comics and manga. I have large collections of both, but only when I happen to be near a store, and I check in and see a deal on something that I like or think I would like. But I'd have never gotten to the point of having any idea what I'd actually like without vast amounts of piracy. And the same goes for anime, with is a massive gateway into manga. While actual licensed anime like old school Dragon Ball Z might have been a very successful way to get people into anime, I don't think licensed translations like that have been the actual driving force for decades anymore. While things like Crunchyroll caught on a bit for a few years, all that happened was many of their own viewers realized what a shit service they were, and started dropping off. They're still a factor, but so is piracy. >>25549 Nobody here needs a reminder to hate modern comics and modern comics adaptations. We're all way ahead of you. And casuals are quickly catching up as well. Disney has already made significant headway in destroying the public goodwill and interest toward the most successful film franchise of all time. And it was such a delicate matter to begin with, to expect viewers to watch so many things to keep up with the story. The problem there is that with each bad movie or tv show that the public doesn't want to watch, they'll not only feel negatively toward the company and franchise, but they'll feel locked out of new works. I can guarantee you that the number of people who liked, let alone watched, that Scarlet Witch tv show, was drastically lower than the number of people who liked and watched Doctor Strange. Now Doctor Strange 2 is expecting them to have liked and watched that show. So many people will see the trailer, feel like they won't fully understand the movie, and then not pay to see it. Or they won't pay enough attention to the trailers, go to see the movie, not understand it with the depth that is required to get full "enjoyment" of it, so they won't like it as much, and they'll now be less interested in further sequels to Doctor Strange, and further Marvel movies in general. Note that the Spider-Man movies were the only ones anyone has given a flying fuck about since Avengers 4, and those were only successful because they're Spider-Man, who is a league beyond the popularity of all other MCU characters. Also, the latest Spider-Man movie was only successful because they brought in characters from the Spider-Man movies people actually liked, which ended in 2007. And those characters are not likely coming back for every future Spider-Man movie. MCU Spider-Man sucks and they knew it, so they had to use this gimmick. But he still sucks, and that gimmick won't work forever. They could have fixed him, but Sony and Marvel suck too bad to have done that. And of course there is the fact that Disney keeps saying "this movie isn't for you" to wide swaths of the population, which happen to be their core audience. So okay, those people aren't watching then. Problem solved, I suppose. >tl;dr: let Disney waste their money on movies and shows people don't want to watch, and they don't want people to watch.
>>25564 Until the companies are dead & buried, it's always good to be reminded of why they need to be.
>>25410 >When was the last time a manga series became a top seller across the Pacific without an anime attached to it? In addition to series mentioned in >>25414, there is also Chainsaw Man. Manga getting big in the U.S. before anime adaptation happens is nothing new. It happens every other year on average. Jujutsu Kaisen was also big before anime was released. Way of the House Husband was selling well too, long time before anime was announced. Besides, even middle of the road mange sells better in the U.S. than 90% of American comics. Fuck, the best selling Batman comic last years was a license manga where Joker is taking care of baby Batman. Best selling Marvel related comic was a licensed Deadpool manga. >>25523 >Comics also have all sorts of other problems with this like price and distribution, but frankly, practically everyone who reads manga in the west is pirating anyway. Maybe the fact that WB and Marvel actually did an okay job fighting piracy in the 2000s, compared to manga, actually hurt their readership in the long run. But now it's just as easy to pirate comics as it is manga, so that doesn't work anymore. Piracy does not matter. Manga is pirated like nothing else, and it is printing cash anyway. Wasn't there research showing that piracy has no effect on sales in most cases, and in ones it does it actually boosts sales numbers through word of mouth. Fighting piracy is a colossal waste of time and money. Both would be better used by improving comics. If I was an indiefag putting out a comic, I would upload it to pirate sites myself. >>25553 That's because a lot of current comic book writers are hacks who could not make it in film, TV, and video game industries. Comics are the last ditch effort to get their pitches optioned.
Batwoman Cancelled After 3 Seasons https://archive.ph/md7Y4
>>25635 lol took them long enough
>>25545 >we arent real woman until we transition Even then you arent, or you wouldn't call them trans and ask for special separate bathrooms
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>>25656 Yep. The eternal contradiction of wanting to be women but also wanting special privilege beyond that.
>>25567 >>25564 >Until the companies are dead & buried, it's always good to be reminded of why they need to be. That really can't be understated. Humans forget shit all the time, even Anons have a bad habit of memoryholing things after a while. If you just get complacent and say "comics are bad because of reasons you already know" without explaining those reasons, you risk a scenario where Disney and co will be all "sorry guys, we'll totally be better", make some grand show of wiping out their diversity hires, and then starting the cycle all over again except this time tempered by experience to slow down the poz process or dress it in a way that on its face seems right-wing but is just as cancerous as before because you've forgotten the leftist way they did it earlier.
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>>25690 Exactly. Never relax.
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Will they ever learn?
>>30999 Modern writers are so out of touch they don't know the difference between an ironic insult & a compliment.
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>>25657 Remember when the DCAU actually had a transgender woman in Gotham Girls and it wasn't super in your face about it or overly political? It was actually relevant to the plot involving all the men in Gotham disappearing and figuring out what caused it and why it happened because she's still affected due to being genetically male. I realize that probably would have been written a lot differently (and worse) if it had been done now because current media can't acknowledge that real world trannies are still artificial hormone dependent flesh sculptures and that many can't pass well. Also... why would being transgender even be a big deal in a comic book setting? There's all sorts of crazy super science and magic that could physically alter someone into the opposite sex that they would be indistinguishable from someone born that way or enough that medical or genetic tests would be the only indication. The DCAU had splicing come up in the original Batman series (where it's first shown and the DCAU's Man-Bat being the result of it), Justice League (Cheetah tested the same technology on herself and her motive for being a villain in this version is to fund her research, also Copperhead apparently gets his powers from splicing as well), and later Batman Beyond (where it has been refined to the point splicing is fairly safe, commercially available to the general populace, a trendy form of body modification, and even super powered chimera street gangs and people making themselves look like demons and vampires are a thing). I always assumed that Selma Reesedale had gotten some early prototype splicing work done for people not to realize she used to be a man with out records of it.
>>31006 >defending trannies >using newspeak pronouns Get the fuck out of here faggot.
>>31006 Science gone wrong transforming you into a monster isn't the same thing as the physically impossible biological change of one's sex down to the DNA & genitals.
>>31007 I'm sorry... what? Where was I defending trannies in my post or using "newspeak". I was pointing out there was in fact an example in the DCAU (back in the early 2000s) that wasn't presented as some sort of political nutjob with a garish pride flag stamped on it. >>31008 And why exactly is pulling sex change somehow harder than making super powered half animal people? I mean, would think changing someone's sex or changing their apparent race or something would actually being easier than jamming DNA from a completely different species in them and getting a stable result. I do know why it is a big deal in comics though out of universe, the question there was meant as rhetorical. The obvious answer isn't anything logical that makes sense within the setting, but hacks who have to make a fantastical story reflect their own personal politics and virtue signaling to the detriment of the story. My point overall is it's nonsensical to think trannies would be much of an issue in a setting where far more extreme physical changes are possible and within reach of someone determined enough to find the methods. It's just bad writing to try to inject modern identity politics into a world with magic or super science created monsters, aliens, demons, gods, etc... and the ability for humans to be transformed into those things. This is major reason why the comic book industry is burning down. Even outside the DCAU there's been physically sex changed characters occasionally in comics before everything went crazy in the past couple decades and usually wasn't treated as weird political shit related to alphabet people. Examples I can name immediately from memory... Guy Gardner during his time as Warrior got turned into a woman because the villain messed with his shape shifting abilities. Malibu Comics had Mantra as a reincarnating ancient magical warrior that was dumped into a female body after thousands of years. The Hero Dial had more than one case of turning the user into the opposite sex.
>>31011 Because animal mutation is mutating what's already there. Getting on Batman Beyond levels of body horror would be the only way to have an actual transition be possible. Still it's not exactly something anyone in something like the DCAU would have as a procedure just out of the kindness of their heart. There'd be something sinister under it.
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>>25097 >And speaking of Batman being a terrible father. I get so sick of that shit, as well. He was just fine with being a father to Dick for decades, then, all of a sudden, he can't tell ANY of his adopted and real children that he loves them? I refuse to believe he's that broken that he can remember Superman's birthday but he can't tell his sons that he cares for them.
>>31019 Yeah I don't like that either. If Bruce is a justice autist haunted by his parents death to the point of breaking down over it then he should be a good father to his sons. At most he should butt heads with Jason & Damian. Not mutilate, beat, or emotionally scar them though.
>>31006 >Also... why would being transgender even be a big deal in a comic book setting? There's all sorts of crazy super science and magic that could physically alter someone into the opposite sex that they would be indistinguishable from someone born that way or enough that medical or genetic tests would be the only indication. For the same reason that High Guardian Spice devoted screentime towards a transgender character who has to take a prescription medicine in order to "stay" a man despite FUCKING MAGIC being able to do everything. >>31011 >My point overall is it's nonsensical to think trannies would be much of an issue in a setting where far more extreme physical changes are possible and within reach of someone determined enough to find the methods. That's because you don't realize that is ISN'T about wanting to be of the opposite sex. It's for the purposes of bringing out a societal revolution. Trannies DO NOT WANT to become an actual woman. Why? Because that isn't their goal. You have to stop looking at these people are logical humans with an extreme fetish and look at them more as a cult who's sole goal is to destroy civilization and remake it in their own image. Need look no further than how their own Marxist material talks about the fact that the technological innovations of America and the West over the past century have been a so-called "detriment" upon society because all of it was achieved without the use of their special Socialist magic charms. To put it another way, in a society where one can legitimately become one of the opposite sex, whether through magic or science, these people would seek to ban it UNLESS the process is achieved using their Marxist theories of science, history, and culture.
>>31008 Uh... yes it is. Just read back those two things you just compared. You could just say the first thing twice. Same thing. >>31011 Reminder that The Ultra-Humanite, Superman's first nemesis and frequently seen as the first "super-villain" was a tranny who put his brain in a woman's body, because he knew that everyone, including the police and Superman, would go easier on him if he were a woman, even though he was already a crippled old man in a wheelchair. He was based and understood that feminists were wrong and that women were much higher on the progressive stack than even cripples. And it worked. He got away from the cops and Superman did go easier due to the new body. And during the entire time he was in that woman's body, Superman and all others called Ultra "she," because she had a vagina now, a real one and not a cut up inside-out penis, so therefore she was a she. Doesn't matter if she thought of herself as a man in a woman's body, which she literally was, because before these retards started with their newspeak, he and she referred to bodies. Also notable is that after two stories in the body of Delores Winters, Ultra threw herself out a high window, into an active volcano, killing herself, as trannies tend to do. But 40 years later they revealed that Ultra survived and her brain was then transplanted into the body of an albino gorilla. Also around the same time they did All-Star Sqadron, a series that took place in WWII, that showed how Ultra survived to get that gorilla body, and in that series she mostly used the body of Dolores Winters still. But it's funnier just to point out that the first supervillain ever killed himself two stories after becoming a tranny. >>31018 The Ultra-Humanite will be public domain in less than a decade. First order of business, do a story where, after her first few schemes are foiled by Superman, she opens up shop selling sex-change operations. I suppose the twist would be the reveal of how she's getting the bodies that he's transplanting tranny brains into. Of course the story would also deal with how Ultra is a supervillain who tried to conquer the world several times before killing famous actress Delores Winters and stealing her body, but the media would forgive her for that because she is a tranny now. Superman, or rather, Clark and Lois, would have to try to deal with the rest of the media trying to turn public sentiment against Superman for daring to fight against a tranny supervillain who is only trying to help other trannies. Oh yeah maybe the trannies who get their brains transplanted could be Ultra's army too. That could be cool. Now the problem is the climax. My true idea would be to have Ultra give up Winters' body in order to fight Superman, using his Albino Gorilla body. But the albino gorilla body won't be public domain for another 50 years, so that's out. I need a new climax. I have a few years to work on it before I can do it without getting sued. Then I'll only have to worry about trannies firebombing my house. Worth it though. Ultra is a very underrated villain. Decades later a retcon revealed Ultra saved Delores Winters' brain and put it in a different body, so she was still alive, and she became a supervillain, but that story wouldn't be public domain for decades, so I wouldn't be allowed to reference it without getting sued. But DC won't be able to do anything to stop me from using OG Superman lore to point out that the first supervillain ever is a tranny.
>>31036 No. No it is not. Altering existing DNA is one thing but you can't make yourself a woman in any sort of believable science.
>>31038 We're not talking about believable science. We're talking about a man who can turn himself into a bat, whose technology was then used to let people turn themselves into snakes and hyenas and all sorts of other things. If you can alter existing DNA to make it more like snake DNA, you can alter existing DNA to make it more like woman DNA, which is much simpler since more of your DNA would remain the same and the biggest change would just be making a Y chromosome into an X, which could involve things like just copying genes from the other X. Hell, cutting off part of an X and turning it into a Y would make it even easier to turn a female into a male. Not that any of this makes any sense in real life, but in comic book sci-fi logic, where you can turn yourself into a giant bat, or where Joker could turn Robin into a clone of himself, then yes, it all makes enough comic book sci-fi sense. If you can make your arms turn into wings, you can make your dick turn into a clit and your balls painfully pull up inside you and morph into a pussy. None of it is believable. Also brain transplants and magic mind transplants and getting doused in chemicals that let you shapeshift into anything you want, or getting an injection that lets you transform into any animal in the universe, or having a connection to the animal dimension that lets you shapeshift into any animal in existence, are also things in these universes, so even if we ignore splicing, which we shouldn't, because it's no more outlandish, there are still plenty of other things here that accomplish that end. Turning into a different species is no less outlandish than turning into a different sex. They're both sci-fi, but if anything, one requires less suspension of disbelief, and the reason it feels right now like it doesn't is only because there are more retards IRL at the moment claiming it's real despite their very own examples showing it's not. What SJWs really are is Brainiac, that time in the New 52 when he tried to get everyone in the universe in his dream machine or whatever, and then once he had enough people in his fake reality, he could make that reality whatever he wanted, and if enough people were in there, who is to say it's fake? That's their goal, to get enough people to just play along with a delusion so they can pretend it's real. But of course it's not, and it never will be even if everyone said it was. But just because they're trying to do that in regards to pretending to be another sex doesn't mean that changing sex is more outlandish than changing species. If anything, it's less.
>>31039 I can believe animal hybridization. I can't believe a penis turning into a vagina.
>>31040 Yes, but the reason you can't believe it is because SJWs have made it fucking annoying by pretending they can do it in real life and making it effectively illegal to point out that they can't. As far as sci-fi logic goes, it's a less substantial change. The body, including the DNA, would be changing less, not more.
>>31041 No the reason I can't believe in it because you can't just remove or grow things like that even trying to change things on the cellular level. It's pure fantasy.
>>31006 I remember when SJWs cried over Dagger Type and the sweetness of their tears making it my favorite Batgirl comic. >Also... why would being transgender even be a big deal in a comic book setting? Because SJWs always want such characters to be token, voice-of-reason, etc. with the usual campy backstory. If such characters posses powers, then they always have to be greater than that of Superman's. But this goes for any LGBT themed character.
>>31042 Yeah, no shit. That's also why you can't grow bat-wings or snake fangs (complete with venom glands) or hyena ears. It's all pure fantasy. The changes to both the DNA and the anatomy there are more substantial than the things you can't believe. They're all fantasy.
>>31055 That's altering things already there. Humans don't have the ability to grow testicles or absorb them into a womb.
>>31057 They don't have the ability to grow venom glands either, but that happens all the time in comics. And you do realize that male and female sex organs grow from the same proto-organs and are analogous to each other, right? That's why I specifically said a dick would turn into a clit. They are analogous organs that grow from the same source. Testicles wouldn't get absorbed into a womb, they'd turn into ovaries. Scrotum would turn into labia. That's literally why there is a seam there. Nobody is claiming it makes any sense in real life, but in worlds where you can grow claws that come out from between your knuckles, or grow glands in your eyes that open portals to the Punch Dimension, or get injected with monkey blood and gain the power to turn into any animal in the universe, then yes, this would be a relatively small feat. Hell, this started talking about Batman Beyond, where there is a woman that turns into a living puddle of ink. But even if we stuck to splicing specifically, the changes are all just as ridiculous, and the DNA changes specifically are much more substantial.
>>31058 Point is, humans changing their sex is silly & only put into comics for the purpose of pandering to a fetish and or group rather than telling a crazy story.
>>31061 Well no, it used to be done for regular sci-fi reasons. Now the entire comic industry is fucked and nothing is done for regular sci-fi reasons. As referenced, The Ultra-Humanite changed sex in like 1939, and it wasn't pandering. If anything it was the opposite. He did it because he realized cops and Superman would go easier on him if he were a woman instead of a crippled old man.
>>31064 I guarantee you Star Trek did not have a "genderless" alien because it was a cool scifi concept. It's always an agenda accompanied by a fetish.
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>>31061 Nowadays it is. But, long ago, it wasn't.
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>>31038 >but you can't make yourself a woman in any sort of believable science NANOMACHINES SON! THEY INVERT GENITALIA IN RESPONSE TO EMOTIONAL TRAUMA! YOU CAN'T MISGENDER ME, JACK!
>>31119 You could say that's just for the joke but they made Jimmy pretty hot there.
>>31067 I don't know about Star Trek much beyond the original series, but in the final episode the villain is a woman that wants revenge on Kirk because she pumped and dumped her when he went off to be Captain, and she wasn't good enough to do that. She is not played sympathetically. Gene Roddenberry was anything but a feminist. I don't recall any specific genderless aliens on the original series, but maybe I'm forgetting one. I do remember that Zephram Cochrane's wife was a formless energy being, a species that would have had perfect justification to be genderless, but wasn't. I haven't finished Next Generation yet, but it does seem more cucked, especially after Roddenberry died. But at least they killed off that female security officer they had in the early episodes. She was the worst, and obviously there as a token. Regardless, The Ultra-Humanite example stands. He/She was only in like four stories before getting killed off. Go and read all of them if you want. Early Superman was pretty cool. >>31125 >that man face >hot You might not know it, but you're gay.
>>31169 The closest I can remember about there being "genderless" species in ST are the Trill (Who have a symbiote that takes on a new host ever generation, with the symbiote retaining all of the memories of it's time with the previous hosts), the Changelings (Humanoid slimes), Xyrillian (It's the Ent episode where Tucker gets pregnant, forget their big thing), and the Vissian (Which are a three-sex species).
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I just remembered, there was also that DS9 episode where they turned Quark into a woman.
>>31171 Body hoppers and shapeshifters are kind of a different thing than changing sex. It goes beyond that. But I do recall one Next Gen episode where they run into a species that all try to act as asexual as possible, until Ryker finds out one is actually female and then fucks it. But that was all gay propaganda, where being gay was thinly veiled as "what if you weren't allowed to be sexual?" That episode sucked. I feel I should note that as late as History of the DC Universe, from 1986, specifically says that all beings in creation were made either male or female. Actually, I'm willing to bet that contradicts earlier appearances of genderless aliens. I don't recall any examples, but that must have happened at some point in fifty years. But then History of the DC Universe establishes the new Post-Crisis history, it takes precedent over any previous stories, so if there were genderless aliens in previous stories, they didn't exist (or at least weren't genderless) post-Crisis.
>>31169 Next Gen has a whole thing where Riker falls in love with a humanoid species who don't have a defined gender/sex. >>31171 The light species in the original series have been retconned as genderless through the animated CG show. Whereas originally the first member of the species shown in the original series is referred to as a man.
>>31119 Dc always its slightly gayer than Marvel, or at least seems more rampant in comparison.
>>31175 >The light species in the original series have been retconned as genderless through the animated CG show. Whereas originally the first member of the species shown in the original series is referred to as a man. >implying any of the new shows are canon They legally have to be like 40% different, even the stuff that takes place in the "Prime Timeline," so the Prime Timeline isn't the same as the original continuity. Also the new stuff sucks and therefore isn't canon. >>31176 Certainly not in recent history. Marvel went SJW way harder and earlier than DC did. Even now, with as bad as DC has gotten, they haven't reached the depths that Marvel reached since 2015.
>>31178 I've only seen a few episodes but I hear the CG cartoon isn't bad. You bring up a good point about the legally distinct things though.
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>>31169 >She is not played sympathetically. Nooooo, no she was not.
>>31179 >but I hear the CG cartoon isn't bad. Isn't Janeway the captain? Even in the '90s they couldn't write her properly because feminism demanded she be a near-Mary Sue in many episodes. I have no confidence that it's not much worse now. Also, it's called "Prodigy," and we all know SJWs do not know the difference between a prodigy and a Mary Sue. Hell, even the old shows' main example of a prodigy is Wesley, and he's already the worst part of the franchise (until the new stuff). No way is that CG series any good.
>>31186 No. Janeway has a hologram AI programmed onto the lost ship the Montley Crue of characters find. The real Janeway does show up in season 2 though.
>>31178 >Marvel went SJW way harder and earlier than DC did. You have a source on that? Seems more like DC went woke first from the moment they were bought out by Warner Bros.
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>>31187 The point is that Janeway is there. That's enough. >>31188 Yeah, that issue of Green Lantern/Green Arrow is very SJW and very stupid. What universe do the black skins live in, again? Earth-One? The universe that Green Lantern saves twice a month? He does plenty for the black skins. But as stupid as that issue is, note that other issues of the same arc then turn it around and show that Green Arrow is nothing but a hypocrite hippie, a male feminist who really just uses his feminist talk to help him womanize more, including immediately swooping in and trying to fuck Black Canary about three panels after her husband died. A douche who lectures others about responsibility but then lets his ward become a junkie. It is still rather obvious that the creators leaned left, but they made a reasonable effort to balance things a bit. After this, DC did a reasonable job with balancing characters' politics, even when they made the characters' political leanings explicit. The other Green Lanterns, at least John and Guy, are also right wing. Though Guy was played as a right wing strawman in Justice League International, at least early on in that series, he became too popular, so he stopped being a joke pretty quickly, and later Geoff Johns and Dave Gibbons would make him get his comeuppance on Batman, the JLI author-insert who would shut him down for liking Ronald Reagan. The Flashes are also all right-leaning, what with two of them being cops and the other being an old man. The various Hawkmen and Hawkwomen are also typically right-leaning, being that they're either alien cops or ancient reincarnated royalty, and they get specifically paired with Green Arrow to provide a foil for his leftism, like Green Lantern does. So with things like this, it makes it a bit less cringy when Batman is portrayed leaning left (though not as far as Green Arrow). Plus, it makes sense that Batman would be a gun-grabber. Superman, importantly, is enough of a square that he tries to keep his politics personal, and feels strongly that it shouldn't influence his work either as Superman or as Clark Kent. That's not to say that bad writers don't get in sometimes and use him as their mouthpiece, though. Yes, they are usually leftists. But my point remains, until the last few years, DC was relatively even handed when politics did come up. That Black Skins shit was a relatively isolated case. The modern SJW infection in comics really metastasized with Marvel's "All-New All-Different" relaunch in 2015. That's when they very deliberately killed off all of the most popular characters of the most popular movie franchise in the world, and replaced them with affirmative action hires, both in-universe, and in their creators. And then the in-universe characters acted like their affirmative action creators. People who never earned their power and thus abused it, acting like supervillains as much as anyone in their respective universes could. Oh there were SJW things before this at both Marvel and DC, but Marvel really went into overdrive here, and despite their best efforts, DC still hasn't managed to catch up. They've gotten closer, but still haven't gotten there.
>>31188 I always love it when someone posts those panels >shames them into giving a black man the ring >black man ALSO does nothing to help the "black skins" >black man marries a magenta woman, because better an alien than a sheboon >magenta woman gets killed >black Green Lantern DESTROYS ENTIRE PLANET, genociding more people than the commies and the nazis combined >keeps killing both good and bad people, but the Guardians are too afraid of being called racists to intervene >"Around green blacks, never relax"
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>>31189 Based Wally
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>>31125 "Hot?" Jimmy looks great! But the point is - before SJWs came with their screeching and crying about things there wasn't as much pandering as it today. Matter of fact, blacks could be portrayed as villains and no one said a thing. Nowadays, you can't have a black antagonist and white protagonist in the same story. Because it's so bad faith. Movies such as Ace Venture: Pet Detective, Silence of the Lambs, and Sleepaway Camp are no good. Due to the protagonists being mentally disturbed transvestites.
>>31189 >Guy was played as a right wing strawman in Justice League International I had no idea about that. Do you have some caps or issue links where this is shown? I'm interested.
>>22467 >Dark Horse will likely take over as Turtles' publisher. It already happened with Star Wars license when IDW lost it and Dark Horse ended up getting it back this year. maybe that fat fuck will finally finish that finale to the 80s comic’s? Leo fighting 2003 shredder was one of the cliff hangers.
>>31199 Still would. You have a good point though.
>>31203 The most famous example would be when Batman knocked Guy out "in one punch!" Basically in the early issues he annoyed the rest of the team because of how much he loved Reagan, because he would call Black Canary "doll," or "broad" or other things only strawmen and no real life people say, and other things like that. Then Batman knocked him out. And everyone clapped. It should be noted that Guy's original personality was not like this. He was originally a special ed teacher who got brain damage while trying to help Green Lantern. He was in a coma for like 20 years, then the Guardians woke him up to help fight in the Crisis on Infinite Earths, but when he woke up his brain damage had altered his personality into the gruff badass we know him as today. This makes it pretty fucked up that the writers would make fun of him like that, and doubly so because of the implication that right-wingers are brain damaged (though frankly I doubt that was specifically intended). The most fucked up thing though is Batman knocking out a guy who already has brain damage, who really shouldn't be taking any blows to the head. When he did, Guy got brain damage again, and his personality altered into a meek little bitch for the next several arcs, before going back to the cool version. Over 15 years later, Geoff Johns had Guy knock out Batman in one punch, as he was in the process of making Green Lantern in general cool again.
>>31206 And people wonder why no one was reading capeshit by the time the 90's rolled around.
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>>31204 >maybe that fat fuck will finally finish that finale to the 80s comic’s? Leo fighting 2003 shredder was one of the cliff hangers. I want to know what a mutant-turtle/styracodon royal baby looks like, I want to know if Donny ever gets back to his normal height, and I fucking DEMAND to know if Raph is ever able to return to a non-demonic hulk-turtle
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>>31206 >(though frankly I doubt that was specifically intended) I don't doubt it one bit. Any character with a viewpoint right of Rush Limbaugh was Guy's man-crush. Guy has been fucked over again and again. It wasn't until the last ten years-ish that he was given any kind of respect. Green ring, yellow ring, cowboy boots, alien DNA, a vagina for some reason, a restaurant, a red ring, ... the hits just kept coming.
>>31206 Well, people do actually use the term "broad" in reference of women(sluts). I'm one of those people. It's just like the term "gal". Technically, gal is just another way of saying "young woman".
>>31211 >the literal kid is being the most mature person in the room Incredible.
>>31209 Actually, capeshit comics reached peak sales in the '90s. The decline in the late '90s was very steep, however. Also, it should be noted that this series, Justice League International, is a bit of a cult-classic fan favorite, because once it found its footing, largely as a comedy series, the characters played well off of each other. Guy wasn't treated like this the whole time. He became a breakout star and got his own series where he was played as being seriously over the top awesome. The series even continued after they majorly retooled the entire Green Lantern brand, making it so there was only one Green Lantern now, and he was a new guy.. Guy instead got a whole new set of superpowers just so his series could continue. >>31211 What I meant is that I doubt the writers were consciously thinking of the fact that Guy literally had personality altering brain damage, because if they did, they probably would have actually addressed it once. They never did. It's never really been addressed, and later flashbacks kind of gloss over it and act as if Guy acted like this in his backstory, when he originally didn't. Also, Guy having a yellow ring was cool as fuck. The red ring was pretty cool too. Alien DNA was retarded, but it was the '90s, and if you go in with that extreme over the top mindset, it's a pretty good example of that. Being the owner of a bar for superheroes was also a cool idea and I wish they kept it when he became a Green Lantern again. Gal Gardner was just a joke thing and it's fine for that purpose. But cowboy boots are unforgivable.
>>31254 >Actually, capeshit comics reached peak sales in the '90s. The decline in the late '90s was very steep, however. Arguably this had more to do with the dotcom bubble and old comics going for thousands of dollars. In the early 90s they started making a thousand special covers for every issue and assholes would buy this shit. Nowadays these are worth about 10 cents from milehighcomics. But at the time it was assumed thry would be worth real money and so like bitcoin a million morons speculated with their life savings, ultimately ending rather predictably. It is worth mentioning that the primary buyers of comics at this time had absolutely no intention of reading comics, and may have disdained them. All of which resulted in the modern era. Comics being made not for comics fans but instead for an audience that never truly existed. And consequently no one is reading them now basically.
>>31255 Yeah, it was a speculator bubble. I assume that's what you meant. The dotcom bubble was later and largely unrelated. But yes, it was many speculators who didn't actually care to read the stuff. But to be clear, people were still reading in high numbers. It's why the Image Comics guys were popular enough to think they could make it without the popular characters they got famous writing for. And for a while, they were very successful with their original stuff, selling their name on new series. The speculator bubble caused many companies, from comic book stores to Marvel themselves, to overextend themselves, being more confident than they should have been. Marvel notably tried to become their own distributor, and when the bubble burst, that investment bit them so hard they went bankrupt and had to lease any movie rights they could in order to stay afloat, and that is directly what lead to the superhero movie boom that is still going on to this day. Marvel Studios was made of the properties '90s bankrupt Marvel couldn't lease out. It's shocking to me that kids these days don't realize that nobody outside of hardcore nerds gave a flying fuck about Iron Man or The Avengers until those movies came out. Spider-Man, X-Men, Hulk, Fantastic Four, Daredevil, Punisher, Ghost Rider. Those movies got made because those were the characters that casuals cared about. Some more than others, Ghost Rider was obviously far less famous than Spider-Man, but he was far more famous than Iron Man. Spawn was far more famous than Iron Man. And he was a character created in the '90s. And while much of his sales were probably due to speculation, enough people read and enjoyed it, and watched the movie and the tv show, that casuals do generally know the story, or at least they did back then.
>>31256 >Yeah, it was a speculator bubble. I assume that's what you meant. Indeed. I apologize for not being coherent. >The dotcom bubble was later and largely unrelated. Yes it as you say. I brought it up purely to set the tone of the time period. Everyone assumed easy money was everywhere and the market would never go down. As it turned out this was because most companies were cooking the books ala Enron, and Worldcom. >Image comics paragraph You got me there. It was probably the last gasp of originality in the art form, but as you say. It did exist. And despite how trendy it now is to shit on kirkman espescially. Well I always rather enjoyed his earlier issues of TWD and Invincible. And who can forget Spawn? Yes. Image was kinda awesome. Fuck man the movie wasnt bad, the HBO cartoon was way better. And he got so big he was turning up in fucking soul caliber and shit. Or was that mortal kombat... Well either way you get my point. It was as you say the high point. I suppose my only point I am attempting (badly) to make is that sales cannot solely be looked at as a mark of success. Yes comics were doing good then but id argue they were coasting off of the 80s. Which was probably the real high water mark. And any charts showing a continuing rise into the 90s did so at least in part based off of neither story or art, but speculation. And shit I could be wrong. Thats just my opinion.
>>31257 I think many fans would agree that the '80s was much better than the '90s in terms of quality. It quickly became popular to mock the ultra hardcore edgy style that was popular for much of the '90s, and thus people ignore that that was legitimately extremely popular, even if sales were inflated. So people then cite the '80s as the high point instead. I do agree I like '80s style better than '90s style, but I also do get the appeal of the the exaggerated art and hyper edge of the '90s. I guess now that's starting to make a comeback in terms of fondness and nostalgia, but I largely chalk that up to the comic book fanbase now being so small that a single guy, Richard Meyer, can significantly influence it with youtube videos just saying "hey man, early '90s X-Men was pretty cool, remember?"
>>31257 Spawn was playable in both Soul Calibur II and Mortal Kombat 11. I kinda wish Necrid would come back at some point.
>>31258 Yeah man. Yeah. >>31259 Oh shit it was both. Thats why I couldn't remember which one it was. Well shit yeah there you go. Dude was popular.
>>31258 >hey man, early '90s X-Men was pretty cool, remember? Could I just be the one to say that I never really got the appeal of the 90's X-Men cartoon that everyone seems to cream their shorts over? Whenever it came on, I used to always change the channel, despite it being placed directly after X-Men Evolution (Which I did enjoy). >>31259 >>31260 You guys forget that Image expanded out to Japan with manga adaptations of Spawn and Witchblade, and an anime for the latter.
>>31261 I really like the old cartoon. Its far more accurate to the source than evolution for example, and that badass fucking opening song. Shit I love it. You guys ever play the arcade game? Man that was a blast with a buddy and some quarters.
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>>31261 Well anon, if almost everyone thinks 90's x-men was fucking rad and you dont, it is up to you to explain why you dont like it. >>31262 Children of the atom?
>>31263 I mean thats also a lotta fun, but no I meant the 6 person 1992 arcade game from konami simply titled "X-men" Its your basic final fight, turtles in time, or simpsons style side scrolling beat em up. Notable mostly for being a 2 screen arcade game with up to 6 players.
>>31261 The '90s X-Men and Spider-Man cartoons both do an excellent job at adapting the long-form storytelling style of the comics. That's not just because they both use multi-part arcs heavily (X-Men doesn't really do this much in Season 1 anyway, though I do think the show gets better once it starts doing it), but they both do better than most adaptations at adapting not just the concepts, the characters and stories, but also the tone. All these things were good enough to adapt in the first place, and these two shows in particular are some of the only ones that get really close to keeping the appeal that made them good enough to adapt.
>>31256 >nobody outside of hardcore nerds gave a flying fuck about Iron Man or The Avengers until those movies came out. It’s kind of like how outside of Batman and Superman, how many people care about DC? People would remember Wonder Woman from the Linda Hamilton show in the 70’s and Aquaman was a walking punchline thanks to Superfriends, but other than that there wasn’t really much interest for guys like Green Arrow or the Flash until the cartoons/movies.
>>31266 Exactly. To be fair, I still don't think there is actual casual interest in Green Arrow, Flash, or anyone else outside DC's Trinity. But even then, Wonder Woman was literally only liked by casuals because she is a woman. None of them had or have any idea what her actual story is. And Superman was/is quickly becoming the same way. After the '80s, nobody gave a shit about Superman anymore. Most casuals from the '90s to now probably don't even know he's an alien. This might have changed slightly with recent movies, but only slightly.
So with disney's stocks massive drop, how long until they gut marvel and we can all finally have peace?
>>31266 >>31267 Funny thing for me is that the DCAU actually made me very interested in wanting to see more of the lesser-known characters like Question, Vigilante, Creeper, and Blackhawk.
>>31276 Das ist gud. But I give it by April. Jedi Survivor comes out in March and they'll be banking on the royalties like greedy fucks they be.
>>31277 Me too. But as awesome as Justice League unlimited is, it's still not something that would give those characters even the cultural penetration that something like Ghost Rider had at the time (even pre-movie), let alone any of the really famous characters.
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>>31276 >So with disney's stocks massive drop, how long until they gut marvel and we can all finally have peace? I want Disney to keep fighting until the bitter end, when they are finally destroyed and Walt's frozen head can rest easy, knowing the jews have finally been defeated.
>>31276 >gut Marvel And give up all that cultural influence from brand-loyalist normalfags? They won't do it until it's a matter of life and death, and chances are they'll get a bailout of some sort because big jew companies always do.
>>31289 Not if I crash this earth. WITH NO SURVIVORS
>>31125 >>31199 >>31205 >I'm totally ok with men crossdressing and even having sex with each other >but in the instant that they call themselves "women" I reject them completely I'm starting to see this mentality quite often, even faggotry can be problematic and controversial at this point.
>>31293 >I'm totally ok with men crossdressing and even having sex with each other >but in the instant that they call themselves "women" I reject them completely Correct.
>>31293 >>31323 Peanut butter chuggers and transvestites won't let people like me have nice things. So I have no choice but to mock their fetishist lifestyles. Same goes for dykes.
These threads all dumb because they all pretend all western comics are marvel capeshit. Read literally anything else
>>31353 What should people be reading then?
>>31357 Archie comics?
>>31006 >webps
>>31358 No, Archie and most western non-capeshit got mega-SJW before the capeshit stuff did. Reminder that Archie Andrews died jumping in front of an assassin's bullet meant for his gay friend, who was a Senator being targeted because he was gay. Yes it was in a future timeline. Doesn't matter. It's the last time anyone cared about Archie.
>>31362 Don't forget them making Jughead (((asexual))) despite him always having been burgersexual.
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>>31363 Honestly, the best thing Jughead could have done with Ethel is to borrow Archie's jalopy and suddenly get ultra date-rapey with her in the back seat. Tearfully running away with a torn blouse while Jug called her a cock-tease. NO ONE WOULD EVER BELIEVE HER. >"It was awful, Betty! He tr-tried to m-make me suck h-his--" >"Jughead. Jughead JONES." >"B-betty, I d-don't know wh-what to d--" >"You're full of shit. He wouldn't let you kiss him so you're making this up. Veronica and I are going to bully you until you develop an eating disorder."
>>31383 I'd read that. And the resulting 10 issue B story of her eating disorder developing.
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>>31384 Ethel tried to go on with her life, but Jughead refused to let her forget him. With every put down, her frantic nightly masturbation sessions became more and more dangerous...
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>>31276 stock timeline is wrong. The peak was in march 2021, when it was trending and rumours swirled of Kathleen Kennedy being fired. March 9 or so was the absolute peak on that day they had their shareholders meeting and one of the questions a shareholder asked the ceo was if KK was getting fired for mismanaging star wars. He said basically said no, she's great and the stock nosedived the next day, never recovered and progressively dropped with every shitty Star Wars thing that happened after, most tied to KK.
There's some big news https://archive.is/cd4oh >Ike Perlmutter has been fired from Marvel Entertainment >Marvel Entertainment division within Disney has been declared “redundant and would be folded into larger Disney business units >Marvel Entertainment is, simply, everything Marvel that isn’t movies or television: it’s the comics, the podcasts, the video games, the everything that isn’t directly under the purview of Marvel Studios (film and television) This might actually be beginning of the end.
>>33339 Huh. I guess using Mark Waid's Daredevil run as a template for everything that came after wasn't such a good idea after all.
>>33340 No Mark Waid's Daredevil is being used for the new Daredevil show. Everything else has been the shit from Marvel NOW! onwards.
>>33339 Finally, the sooner Disney and capeshit dies the sooner I can rest.
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>>33342 https://archive.ph/TSeDk Mark Waids's Daredevil run was essentially the reason why shit like Marvel NOW happened to begin with.
>>33339 >no Alonzo lesbianism to balance Feige's homosexuality >Perlmutter not even in his position of minuscule power to throw a couple of thumbtacks in the road to slow him down >Bob Ogre, despite tough talk, doesn't give a fuck as long as (((The Message))) keeps going out and they edit it for the parts of the world who punish buttsecks >Kevin Faggy now completely unobstructed to mold the Marvel Cinematic Universe in his pedojew image >We Wuz Kang the Conqueror's accuser paid off by Disney because he looks enough like George Floyd to be a great virtue signal I don't even know how the most rabid of Marvel fans will be expected to watch this shit. The biggest problem is the people who thought The Big Bang Theory was high art. They don't give a shit what they watch as long as they get to eat $15 popcorn while they do it. As evidence, I present every single licensed property that Michael Bay was allowed to touch with his greasy hands. I need Disney to fail so fucking bad, it's unreal. It's become my white whale. I need to see them on fire and their degenerate D.I.E.-packed celluloid exploding all around them.
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>>33342 >Waid's Daredevil instead of Miller's
>>33347 Lightheartedness wasn't the problem. It was the political soapboxing & quirky writing. Which Waid Daredevil & Hawkeye definitely pushed in different ways. Really Marvel comics were on the decline since Civil War.
>>33339 >>33348 Disney will be just a bad memory well before they elect Spread Eagle as president.
>>33348 Just rest easy knowing that they're redpilling more and more people with every piece of propaganda they produce.


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