>>1021960 > I'm pretty sure that Level 5 was working on a horror JRPG before they canned it. If you mean holy horror mansion then no it's still being made even got a trailer this week. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVTergiQs

>>1021970 >no FeMC option Meh.

>>1021976 >>no FeMC option >Meh. you will need to get used to it people are sick of body type a/b and censored character creators and unisex outfits the simplest and cheapest way to please everyone is just to not give the option. >>1021976 >>no FeMC option >Meh. we will probably see this a lot more in the future sex choice pisses off one side or the other you can be boy/girl and piss of blackrock or you can be a/b and piss off your customers better to just not let us choice in there mind.

Since it's Halloween, might as well ask here. What's a somewhat easy Horror Japanese game, preferably with a lot of spoken dialogue? For reference I know a bit above 5k words, can more or less can recognize the 2k Kanji, and if it's something like Persona 4 or Stella Glow I can figure out most of what is being said unless it's the news broadcast from P4.

>>1021982 Define "easy"

>>1021990 At the level of Persona 4 conversations as long as they don't talk philosophy or it's the news reporter, and Stella Glow. I can also watch some anime for kids such as Pretty Cure without any form of subs and mostly understand what is said, but something like Kamen Rider is a bit more difficult. Not exactly sure how else to gauge my level of understanding.

As an observer with no interest in learning Japanese but a lot of interest in language: I must ask why Japanese never got rid of its Chinese characters? They're famously difficult, and Japanese actually has several of its own writing systems. Most other languages formerly with Chinese orthography switched decades to centuries ago. Korean went to their own Hangul system in the 1400s, Vietnamese switched to a highly modified Latin script in 1910 (though that had actually existed in some form since the 1600s), Dungan switched at some point during the turn of the last century. Why has Japanese kept all those characters? I don't know much about the language, does it make it easier somehow? I'd assume the opposite.

>>1021995 The Japanese language has a lot of words that sound the same, but have completely different meaning. When talking to someone you use context and pitch accent to figure out if the other person meant HaShi as in Bridge or Chopsticks or something else, whereas in writing you use different Kanji, so 橋 and 箸 respectively. There was an attempt when the USA occupied Japan, to use a Latin style alphabet, but again it could never have worked, because they have less sound groups than the English have. As such, the Japanese use all three of their alphabets: Chinese Kanji(over 2000), Hiragana(46) and Katakana(46 as well), as follows, most of their words are in Kanji, maybe with Hiragana above if it's a rare Kanji, they use Hiragana for grammar(connecting words, conjugation and so on), and Katakana when it's a foreign word like hamburger, or when it's a well known word, but the kanji is obscure like the Kanji for mouse(kids know how to say mouse, but not even adults know the Kanji as it's not part of the required Kanji a highschool student needs to know. Of course there are exception, such as children's books and games, like Pokemon which are entirely in Hiragana. Oh I should also mention that the Japanese language doesn't, usually, use a space between words, so those Hiragana characters also act as a space between words. Now the Chinese have it even worse, as they have even less sound groups than the Japanese have, so when it was proposed for them to ditch the Kanji and use a Latin alphabet, a politician wrote this poem as a joke(mp4 related). The poem does have a meaning when you read it, so it's not just random words, but when you read it, it all sounds the same. Imagine writing this phonetically in English and preserving it's meaning. If you are curios, here is what it says: >In a stone den was a poet Mr Shi, who loved eating lions and determined to eat ten. >He often went to the market to watch lions. >One day at ten o'clock, ten lions just arrived at the market. >At that time, Mr Shi just arrived at the market too. >Seeing those ten lions, he killed them with arrows. >He brought the corpses of the ten lions to the stone den. >The stone den was damp. >He had his servant wiping it. >The stone den being wiped, only then did he try to eat those ten lions. >While eating, he just realised that those ten lions were in fact ten stone-lion corpses.

>>1021995 >>1021998 It should also be mentioned that there's also no unified way to actually write Japanese with Latin characters even to this day. Since the original 1940's reforms, we've mostly defaulted to the Hepburn system when learning the language to the point that we get the hang of kanji and kana, but there are still nagging problems. For example, the character 『つ』. It was pronounced as "tsz" in the original Hepburn system from 1867-1954, meanwhile the Kunrei-shiki and Nihon-shiki systems pronounced it as "tu". Or even it's 濁点 variant 『づ』. It's technically pronounced as "dzu", the Hepburn and Kunrei-shiki system list it as "zu" (Making it no different from 『ず』), but you have to type the Nihon-shiki pronunciation of "du" in order to use the correct character if your typing into a computer. That's not to mention other issues like the "L/R" and "B/V' discrepancies. You can see a lot of this evolution in action even on the Western side if you look at Japanese words printing in English over the past century and a half. For example, newspapers before WWII refered to 『東京』 as "Tokio", since then we've just accepted the spelling of the city as "Tokyo", but the reality is that the "proper" spelling if we're to follow the established rules is that the city should be listed as "Toukyou" or "Tōkyō". And just to give an idea of how radical the reforms already were in the 1940's, which you can read about up here: >>1011142 There's also the fact that said reforms also removed the kana 『ゐ』 and 『ゑ』 from the "official" Japanese language, but they're still in use by the general public because none of these reforms ever actually stick.

>>1021995 >Korean went to their own Hangul system in the 1400s Don't let them fool you, they still used hanja until the late 1800's, with activists switching to pure hangul in an effort to carve out a national identity more distinct from China, and it didn't even catch on until after WW2 where everyone was on board because they hated Japan. Reading Korean sucks without a way to tell homophones and such apart, but that's just my opinion coming from Japanese where I'm carried by just glancing at a kanji and knowing it. Going more to why kanji is still used... from most perspectives, learners learn kana first and then kanji, but in my opinion Japanese could be seen as using kanji first, kana is mostly auxiliary and used in grammatical ways. Not saying to learn kanji first (I mean, ideally you learn kana first real quick and then start learning kanji and vocab ASAP), but vocabulary is primarily how you're doing most communication, and vocab is written in 99% kanji, so they go hand in hand. I don't really think they're really as difficult as people think, radicals that make up kanji have phonetic elements and semantic (meaning) elements, learning kanji and reading is a self-reinforcing exercise that helps you learn more kanji and vocabulary and read more. As native English speakers, or native anything else speakers, we don't think about the etymology of the word or how it's constructed from Latin or French or German roots or whatever, we just use it, connections with other words are just something we naturally understand and then don't think about. It's kind of that way with kanji. I can see 正 and generally know what the kanji is about, even if it's pronounced differently in 正直 and 正義. I know that the しょう pronunciation of that is in another kanji 証 as a phonetic marker, I know what that kanji generally means in words whether it's 保証 or 免許証. If I'm wrong then I found out I was wrong, either by looking it up or simply being told, and have corrected myself and have gained that knowledge forever. You just learn more and more by experiencing with it so it's not really that deep or some sort of insurmountable task. (Which is why in my opinion dedicated kanji study is a time waster unless you're genuinely autistic and want to take Kanji Kentei or something) It is a lot of work, yeah, there's lots of vocab, but that esoteric "amount of kanji and vocab I need to learn" will always decrease as you keep reading and learning. I don't have any concrete evidence of why Japanese's system is good for itself, other than what I've personally consumed. Playing a kana-soup game like old RPGs before they could fit kanji in dialogue boxes is actually really a pain sometimes. Meanwhile, when those games add a few simple kanji it really increases the readability of them. But, also, I suck, so I could just be making excuses. I'm sure 8-year-old Japs could kick my ass in reading a game without kanji like old Pokemon Basically, yeah it's hard, but it's not as hard as people think, and also if it isn't broke why fix it.

Just a heads up in case anyone is interested in looking at ibot linktaphor Refantazio came out today, by the same Atlus devs as Persona 5, and this time they don't appear to have done an in-house translation. The game is literally about politics, so this means the story is basically fucked in English.

>>1026316 >at ibot linktaphor NIgger, what the fuck? That was supposed to say Metaphor Refantazio. Maybe I forgot a space?

>>1026318 it somehow filtered "meta" into "ibot link"

>>1011142 >Recently grew frustrated with how it seemed like I had to keep restarting Tae Kim's grammar guide from the beginning, since he throws so much information at you all up front and you better remember it quickly and for the long haul by the time you get to Section 4, so I decided to take a break and try a different approach by going through Roy Andrew Miller's A Japanese Reader (1962) just to change the pace of things for me. Just decided to provide an update on this. So going further in Miller, the guy pretty much sums up the entirety on of the Japanese conjugation rules into three pages in an admittedly confusing manner. The guy made it clear that the book is basically a "cliff notes" of the lesson's from Samuel Martin's Essential Japanese for each "lesson", but I wasn't expecting it to be something that completely blunt. If I was to compare it to Tae Kim, it's basically everything up through section 4.6 (125 pages) of his grammar guide. That being said, it does point out something that it feels like is left unsaid because it's so "obvious" except to the "stupid" (Like me). It is that if you're actually going to want to learn Japanese, then you need to start reading Japanese. That you need to start this habit early on in your studies or you're going to stall and fast. Don't focus too much on the grammar or you're going to be wasting your time memorizing rules that you don't know nor know how to apply. Yes, grind through Anki-decks of vocabulary, but make sure it's covering the 教育漢字 and then get to reading grade-school level material right then and there. Do anything more advanced too soon and you're going to be burning yourself out. Best way to tell if you're ready for more advanced material is if you're using a Jap-Jap dictionary to look stuff up instead of a Jap-Eng dictionary. Like I said, this should be something "obvious" (As well as a few other Anon's having since pointed this little fact out), but I can guarantee that if I missed this, then other people have as well

Decided to update this thread with an interesting thought exercise. Generally Japanese learners tend to get miffed by bad lolcowlizations of Japanese material to English (because of rainbowhairs), but what about when a Japanese individual attempts to adapt a script written and voiced in English? In this regard, I present a Pokemon fanimation and a JP fandub of it for you guys to dissect. How does presenting it first in English, with references and humor based off an American interpretation of the first season of the anime, and then trying to piece together what the lolcowlizer picked to transliterate into and deliver as Japanese, affect the learning process?

test

>>1033229 >it does point out something that it feels like is left unsaid because it's so "obvious" except to the "stupid" It is interesting how not-obvious that is to many people though, but not because it is just taken for granted (which people like us do) but because some people actually think that they can learn everything through Genki and pre-baked Anki decks that only get them to N4 at most. If I recall recently there was a little "drama" (not really because the people involved weren't seeking conflict or attention and more just discussing their thoughts) where some YouTuber with a penguin character made a video titled something like "Learning Japanese is actually easy." This pissed off some of the more faggy Japanese learning "influencers" despite the penguin basically just reiterating everything the Japanese learning community has been saying for the past 15 years. And that is to read more and listen. Stephen Krashen's comprehensible input hypothesis. Despite this penguin guy having a literal degree in linguistics he still caught flak from the faggy Japanese learning "influencers" because "uhm yikes Krashen's theories aren't proven and are actually controversial" as if they themselves didn't learn Nipponese in the same way. They just say "pick up RTK and Genki and go take college classes." It's actually mind boggling at how many people with moderately notable social media presence who are competent at Japanese do this. It's like being able to squat three plates and saying it's okay to train on 10lb dumbells and do jumping jacks for 10 minutes a day and you'll eventually be able to do the same. Bit of a rant but yeah. You're right, read more.

>>1037295 >some YouTuber with a penguin character made a video titled something like "Learning Japanese is actually easy." That would be Trenton. Webm attached isn't the video you're talking about that garnered the "drama" but it was I thought you were originally referring to. The actual video title is "You Can Learn Japanese by Just Listening" and he made that response video your post spoke of. Going to try to convert the rest of his videos to post here, including that one as they're useful

>>1037650 And here's his actual video of "You Can Learn Japanese by Just Listening" and the response made

>>1037295 >>1037650 >>1037940 I've watched Trenton's video recently, and was exposed to the "What I've Learned" video many years ago -- even went and read Krashen's book too. My (cold) take: listening and reading is the single most high impact thing that you can do to improve at Japanese, It should be at least 80% of how you spend your time. It's better to do 15 anki cards, or read one chapter out of Genki (no exercises) and then listen to something like Teppei or Shun than it is to try and do more and more Anki/Genki. Nothing else makes the lessons learned stick so well. The book learning is "information", but immersion is where what you know actually starts to take on real meaning. But(!) Trenton (and to some extent, Krashen himself) really seem to advocate for listening ONLY, which is not helpful. In order for input to be "comprehensible" you need to be primed to what words mean and how sentences are formed. It doesn't matter how simple a podcast is -- if you don't know any Japanese at all you aren't going to understand any of it. So that little extra bit of book work that you can do is a major XP multiplier.You need enough information that you can make inferences, deductions, predictions and shrewd guesses about what you're listening to -- this isn't just in line with Krashen's theories, but also the theory of "deliberate practice" which I hope at least a few anontachi are familiar with. If you understand ~80% of what you listen to for sure and ~15% of what you listen to with some reasonable guessing you're doing something right. Trenton outright says that no matter what it's going to take 5+ years to "git gud" and that's just not true. If you're doing it right, it shouldn't. But it will take a lot longer if you "just listen" and expect your brain to magically put the pieces together without any kind of guidance.

>>1037295 I'm a tourist to this thread and have no interest in learning moon, but > faggy Japanese learning "influencers" because "uhm yikes Krashen's theories aren't proven and are actually controversial" as if they themselves didn't learn Nipponese in the same way. They just say "pick up RTK and Genki and go take college classes." Dude, holy shit. Dogmatism in language learning is a common, awful thing. Are you familiar with the concept of a nodev? Many in the "language community" are the linguistic version of that. This seems to be a uniquely Anglophone problem, when you look at countries like Germany, Indonesia or Sweden you see vast majority of the population are multilingual. When you look at Anglophone countries, they're all strongly monolingual. Go talk to an immigrant, ask them how they learned English - nine times out of ten they'll tell you they didn't study a day in their fucking life and sort of picked the language up. The way languages are taught in schools is stupid, we teach linguistics rather than language. Great, this kid went through three years of French and can tell you what a pluperfect participle is! What use if that if he even can't walk into a café in and order a coffee? Teaching language isn't this arcane, esoteric thing that you just can't help, most 16-year-olds in Norway can speak English. This is a solved problem. Kids in Anglophone nations go through years of language study and come out the other side not able to string a basic sentence together, and it's because of these poisonous beliefs held by people who can't speak the languages they're dictating. So much time spent on route learning of grammar and syntax that never gets you anywhere.

>>1037999 >In order for input to be "comprehensible" you need to be primed to what words mean and how sentences are formed. You and you don't. This is a problem with language classes even in those about the native language being taught to native speakers. Which is that you begin wasting time teaching about the minutia of the language to the point that no one actually knows how to speaking the fucking thing without sounding like an asshole. For example, does anyone actually know that a dangling participle is? Or actually care that people end a sentence with a preposition? Perhaps one of the best lessons I ironically got out of college was my English teacher straight up telling me to stop caring so much about all the "rules" I learned in middle and high school that are "required" to speak English. Just type how you talk regardless of how incorrect it actually look. Even then, one of the things I learned is that it's better to expand your vocabulary and speaking skills by just reading itself as you'll begins using and comprehending terms almost by osmosis. Yes, you do need to understand basic grammar just so you understand how the language functions, but let's actually put this into perspective. How much of Tae Kim's guide do you even need to "know" to reach that point? According to this post up here, you just need to read the first third of the guide before you're off to the races: >>1033229 So get to that point, then drop it, and move on to actually immersing yourself in the language as you'll just be wasting your time studying anything further beyond vocabulary.

>>1038002 tl;dr Immersion is key?

>>1038051 Basically. If you want the most "effortless way" to "learn" a language, just put yourself in a position where you're constantly exposed to it and you'll pick up something eventually. Sid Caesar is perhaps the best example of this in America where he "learned" several of different languages by waiting tables at his family's restuarant in New York and just listening to the different patrons coming in. Though it's worth noting that the guy couldn't actually speak any of those languages, just mimmick them.

>>1037940 The other Trenton videos One had to be converted from 360p instead of 480p due to the longer running time.

One of the problems with relying solely on "practical" knowledge of a language is that it's value is limited for a lot of great fictional works, which is a large part of why /v/irgins and f/a/gs want to learn the language in the first place. An ESL would probably have tremendous difficulties with works that were written or translated in Olde English, which is a lot of the great works in the west, and stuff like fantasy works and settings tended to have a lot more formal tone, dialogue and descriptions compared to average English (or at least used to). If it's something an ordinary native speaker might have difficulties with, it would be that much harder for someone who learned the language by the seat of their pants to survive. For a Japanese work as an example, if Kamitani himself was struggling with making Muramasa based on classical Japanese mythology and literature because of the language's historical difficulty, it would be even harder to expect someone informally trained to handle such a thing.

>>1038256 >An ESL would probably have tremendous difficulties with works that were written or translated in Olde English Native English speakers can't read fucking Old English, it's linguistically a different language. You should have used Shakespeare as an example.

>>1038249 >First vid I both agree with and disagree with the points he's making. He is correct that you don't need to get autistic about learning the kanji. Just memorize the kanji (And kana) used for the "word/term", the specificly relevant pronunciation, and the "defintion" in the context you found it. After a while, you'll begin to see how the individual kanji play on one another and/or understand the individual "parts" of it. However I strongly disagree about dismissing learning how to WRITE the characters. The reason why is two-fold. The first has to do with the fact that you retain things much faster if you physically write them down than if you just memorize them based on visuals. The second has to do with the fact that it makes it much easier to notice the kanji outside of computer usage, such as in writing or used as brush strokes. My recommendation is to learn how to write the characters at the same time as you're going through your Anki deck, and make sure that you have a "Reverse" card that shows the English "definition" and leaves you to write what the correct kanji/kana is. >Second vid What about just learning to speaking the words in isolation? Not trying to make sentences, but just hearing to how a native pronounces a word and mimmicking them. >>1038267 Shakespeare is still relatively modern in the English language compared to other writers like Gervase Markham who lived during the same time, or Anthony Fitzherbert from a half a century earlier. <For example, here's a couple pages from his New Natura Brevium (1534). Imagine a foreigner attempting to read this.

>>1038267 >native English speakers can't read Olde English Yeah, that was a mistake, I meant to refer to old modern English like Shakespeare, not actual old English.

>>1038036 > So get to that point, then drop it, and move on to actually immersing yourself in the language as you'll just be wasting your time studying anything further beyond vocabulary. Disagree: there isn't some arbitrary stopping point where further knowledge suddenly loses all value. You're going to better equipped when you have a conceptual model of the language that you can fit input to and reinforce your understanding.

>>1038051 Yes. And the quality of it is important. It is like the gym. There are fuckers who spend 30-45 minutes just fucking around. They might get good newbie gains then plateau super fast. Then there are people who give an hour and a half and actually plan a routine around it and adjust their lives for the better outside the gym and they will consistently get better. >>1037999 Yeah, I have only watched the one video by Trenton but I think his focus on the "just listen" is him assuming it's a given that most people will already be doing that last 20% because that's generally what people already are doing. My reaction is more against the people like Oriental Pearl who edge on grift and cockblock people by giving actual shit information and fearmonger against a completely non-offensive video, despite they themselves having some pretty good faculty on the language because they consumed and immersed. I'm just annoyed at the audacity of these niggers. The dogmatism that >>1038002 mentions. And I know Oriental Pearl knows better because I used to watch her (his? Still not convinced Pearl isn't a tranny) videos but the reality is the response to it was probably just clickbaiting. Also I suck at Japanese I shouldn't even talk, but still. It's just, people over a year in need to get rid of Genki for fuck's sake, on my study abroad to Nipland people were carrying it all over like it was a travel guide

>>1038314 >Disagree: there isn't some arbitrary stopping point where further knowledge suddenly loses all value. Yes, there is. This is true in all fields, not just learning a language, where you reach a point where you have all the knowledge "required" and then need to follow through on doing the work using that knowledge. And wasting your time trying to receive more "knowledge" doesn't help one bit because you're wasting your time in theory instead of implementation. Take this out of learning a language and apply it to something like learning math. Would you be worried about teaching a 1st grader about graphing matrices or logs when he's barely capable of adding together triple digit numbers? Similar thing here, would you waste someone's time trying to teach them about all the slang used in Japanese or even all the Pre-WWII rules that still technically apply in except where they don't when the person cannot even tell the difference between using 「が」 or 「は」?

>>1038599 > and wasting your time trying to receive more "knowledge" doesn't help one bit because you're wasting your time in theory instead of implementation Did you notice that you're trying to argue with someone who advocates for >=80% input? > Would you be worried about teaching a 1st grader about graphing matrices or logs when he's barely capable of adding together triple digit numbers? Two completely different things. Are you arguing about needing to learn A before B or arguing that you don't need to learn C after B? I'm talking about the latter -- you seem to be focused on the former as if you're telling anyone anything they don't already know. Not sure if you're the same guy I already replied to but with a different ID or if you're a new poster and just need to read the original post I made. Really not sure where the contention is -- as I see it we already agree with each other.

>>1038919 >Not sure if you're the same guy I already replied to but with a different ID I am >Really not sure where the contention is -- as I see it we already agree with each other. Because in many of the discussions I see, and why I believe that I have been floundering for the past several years (Have been "trying" to learn Nip since 2018), focus upon studying the material (Whether it be grinding kanji or the grammar buide) before being exposed to any degree of it. And as I experienced going through the grammar guide, the farthest I've managed is section 4.12 before burning out as I didn't see that as being an accomplishment when I can barely comprehend or even remember the differences between three directional particles or see that a word is a conjugated verb until I look it up in the dictionary. Sort of like Trenton was talking about in his videos, there's this idea (Even subconsciously) that you need to "learn" the material before you should even attempt to "comprehend" and "use" it. And, yes, you do need to learn "some" basic concepts like how a simple sentence is formed. However everything I've seen coming from Trenton, and Roy Miller, and even Tae Kim (Though his arguing was specifically for introducing Kanji early on) is that you should expose yourself to the "raw" content as soon and quickly as possible in your studies. I have not seen anyone else really say that, or even the added fact that you're not going to be understanding much of it until the moment that you do. So the takeaway I'm seeing is to learn basic grammar, then drop all of that for grinding vocab and be exposed to the content as much as possible. Yes, you can "study" the grammar further beyond just the basics, but is that really going to be a productive use if you're struggling with basic vocab and cannot even comprehend half of the words you hear in something like the attached vid?

>>1038934 >>1038599 This is not just limited to learning a (spoken) language. I've experienced this in coding as well. Some people know a lot of stuff, has read documentations in and out, even knows how to program stuff more than me. But when it comes to actually writing down code, they get autistic about little things, fumble about, constantly refactor things to make it "better", and all around aren't fit for working in the office. Having knowledge of stuff and actually putting in to work are two different things, and ultimately it matters how well you work, how easy its to work with you, how are you using that knowledge to get shit done. Having shit tons of "I know that" smug ego stroking doesn't help when you're just writing boilerplate code for a insignificant company. Or an oriental language for a cute xenophobic culture

>>1038051 >Immersion is key? it's not everything. seeing things in the wild in context, figuring out what situations an expression is used in, and recognizing patterns from experience is nice, but drilling greatly speeds up the acquisition process. for example practice sentences with a structure, like A代わりにB (A may be true, but on the flipside, B) >このカメラは安い代わりに、画質が悪い (while this camera is cheap, its it takes poor quality pictures) >このスマホは高機能な代わりに、値段が高い (this phone may have high specs, but it's quite expensive) >この町、暮らしやすい代わりに、遊ぶところがない (while this town is pleasant to live in, there are no places to have fun) of course, sounding natural is another goal, and I don't know of any ways to attain that other than just imitating natives (and don't just mimic media blindly) and your second biggest enemy will be figuring out how to say what you want to say (phrasing, words, expressions, etc.) and discerning the differences in usage between similar words (e.g. 適宜, 適切, 適した, 相応, ふさわしい) >>1038599 language learning is not a cumulative process where everything builds on what came before. people have their priorities, but there's no reason you have to learn "in order" >>1038934 for grammar the strategy is generally to look up stuff in reference material as you go